Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
When the Show Gets Canceled: Finding Purpose Beyond Alcohol (w/guest Jason Clifton)
What happens when an artist decides to cancel his "Blacking Out Downtown Show" for good? In this deeply authentic conversation, local Ellensburg artist Jason Clifton marks six months of sobriety by sharing the unexpected freedom he's discovered in living alcohol-free.
From his roots as a California skateboarder who found his way to the Pacific Northwest in 1990, Jason takes us through his evolution as an artist, musician, and community fixture. His unique artistic approach combines street art techniques with fine art sensibilities, resulting in distinctive works created through hand-cut stencils and spray paint. Having painted eleven murals throughout Ellensburg and run various skateboard shops over the years, Jason's creative presence has been woven into the fabric of the community for decades.
The heart of this conversation explores how Jason's relationship with sobriety has transformed his experience of life and art. Rather than viewing sobriety as restrictive, he describes it as a "superpower" that allows him to move through social spaces with newfound freedom and lightness. A pivotal DMT experience helped him recognize how he carried the weight of others' perceived judgments—a realization that eventually extended to understanding how alcohol similarly controlled aspects of his life. Most compelling is Jason's observation that when we fill our lives with purpose—whether through creative expression, skateboarding, or meaningful relationships—substances naturally lose their appeal.
For anyone questioning their relationship with alcohol or seeking deeper understanding about recovery, this conversation offers a refreshing perspective that goes beyond conventional narratives. It's not about fighting against substances but about reclaiming agency and allowing awareness to become the pilot instead of letting the body run the show. As Jason puts it, "I just gave up on believing and I just operate on what I know to be true."
So Dr D here, deep Dive with Dr D and yeah boy, I'm excited. So first let me do my shameless plug that I do. If you don't know by now, I would do this every time I released my book earlier this year. Grit Over Shame, it is wherever you buy books. You can get it on Amazon, locally in Ellensburg at Pearl Street Books Gerald's, and you can get it online. You can get it as an ebook and I narrated it because one of you said, hey, you should narrate it, so I did. So you can get it as audiobook and that's yours.
Speaker 2:oh, good, I was gonna ask you, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I wouldn't. I want to read it, that is yours. Oh, it's signed to me.
Speaker 1:That's yes, yeah, thank you yeah, if I get famous someday you can go. Hey, I, I knew that guy.
Speaker 2:I still read books, so I appreciate the pages Perfect. Yeah, I just read Mark Lanigan's book. It was my bedtime. Oh yeah, like get down for about a week, yeah and well, it was rough. That was a rough one. Yeah, read, sing Backwards and Weep. Okay, it was Mark Lanigan's book. It's like kind of his memoir.
Speaker 1:Well, I call that the short story of the crazy wild ride of my life. Yeah, yeah so, yeah, so I have. If you're watching this live, we've got some people on Facebook and we've got some friends on TikTok. Those of you that live in Ellensburg for any amount of time, you probably know this guy, jason clifton, and I was thinking back.
Speaker 2:I think I met you oh man, way back, I think I'm. I was honestly trying to think of that too, and I and I was thinking that it must have been in 2009, when you were working for barth, was that?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, yeah, and that must have been when I met mira at the time. Same time it's possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah uh, yeah, because we had, we had just had our kids.
Speaker 1:Yep, um, like right then yeah, so about 2009, so that's yeah, that's a long time. 16 years, yeah, yeah. And I remember the first time I met you. I'm like, oh, I'm gonna like this guy. You're pretty, pretty cool dude, so, yeah, so we've known each other a long time and I was thinking about this too. When do I interact with Jason? Oh, okay, I usually see Jason downtown. That's usually where I pass by him. He's got his art is down there. His most recent one that I really like is the Screaming Trees artwork on the back of a building in an alley, and that is super cool. I just showed it to a guy.
Speaker 2:Matt Stevens owns that building Okay. So it's the back of Matt Stevens that makes sense, that's how we were able to kind of just get away with that with just sliding in and do it without that's. To kind of just get away with that with just sliding in and do it without that's perfect permission, right. I think it's super cool. I tend not to get a lot of permission for the things that I do downtown from the uh, from the bureaucratic groups that run it, you know but you do cool stuff.
Speaker 2:I talk directly to the building owners. There's no, I mean, yeah, I honestly don't feel like the, the, I mean they're not gonna like this. But like the art association, the downtown association, like all all the bureaucratic parts that kind of run downtown, I feel like have this like self-appointed authority to them. And I've literally just gone directly to building owners and been like, hey, I do this, you own the thing, can I do this? And they say, yeah, and it happens, it doesn't like all that other stuff is like not required. Yeah, and I feel like the self-importance of it is kind of locked up within themselves instead of the actuality of like an artist can just make art.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, like there's, I mean I'm almost like those people like um or those kind of groups bar art from happening far more than they get it done or actually promote it, you know in the name of promoting sure themselves.
Speaker 1:It makes me think, you know, uh, the kcrco, which is now peers rising. Yeah, that was my first foray into starting a nonprofit and launching it and growing it. And what you're saying I see happen in a lot of ways is that we I could even admit myself at times we start things with really good intentions, like I want to help people, right, or I want to help communities, yeah, because I do think that everybody on those groups are like yeah, well intended.
Speaker 2:Definitely want to help communities. Yeah, because I do think that everybody on those yeah, groups are well intended definitely want to do the thing.
Speaker 1:Then we start protecting our territory right right, right, and it makes me think of the building that piers rising is in is the old china inn building. Right, right, and the guy who bought it and refurbished it he almost gave up because of the bureaucratic stuff with the historic, whichever committee or organization. They were like you gotta keep this and you gotta keep that and it's like there's part of me that like I get that, but also, you know, it's his building it's his property.
Speaker 2:I think there's a weird line there where, like people try, like those organizations try, to tell people that actually own property what they can do with it. Yeah, and that starts to really impede on what it is to own something. It belongs to me or it belongs to this person, like if I want to do something to it. Who is any self-appointed like group to tell you what you can do with the things that you own? You know?
Speaker 1:well, just, you know, that's just crazy to me I, I got a friend who owns a business in town, in the city, you know. Well, just you know, that's just crazy to me. I, I got a friend who owns a business in town, in the city, you know, and every municipality is like this, it's not just ellensburg right, right, yeah, it's not, yes, the city has the right of way at part of your property is actually the city can come like the sidewalk right, it ends up the sidewalk right.
Speaker 1:You're required to maintain that sidewalk or any trees, but you can't make any, any changes, you know, and it's like it's it's interesting.
Speaker 2:And then anything that's visible from the sidewalk on your thing becomes their territory. So it's like this visible line of sight onto your property becomes their property. So is it mine or not? Exactly Right. And the historic society is crazy too, the buildings being a certain age and having them be like oh well, these are historic. Yeah, I mean, the pyramids are old, right, the colonial buildings that are like a hundred years old, I don't really consider old in a way, you know, like they're not. It's not the same thing.
Speaker 2:Well, it's kind of Preserving them is like they were painting on them. Right, they were painting, were painting on them, right, they were painting murals on them and you know. So it's like I don't know some of that stuff. Some of that stuff is just crazy to me, like the I'm with you, the jurisdictional boundaries there are are pretty crazy and I'm just not a big fan of bureaucracy or really authority. Honestly, I'm a strong. Honestly, I struggle with it.
Speaker 2:I always have, yeah, really tried to grow into a place where I can strike a balance with it. Yeah, because I want to be a part of it. I mean, I am a part of the community and I want to work with it and I want to contribute. And then you come up against these barriers that don't allow you to contribute in ways that you could just do. I could just paint more murals, yeah, I mean I've painted 11 in the last probably six or seven years in Ellensburg and the majority of them I've just gone directly to the building owner and been like, hey, can I do this? And they just say, yes, they're like I'm the building owner, they own the building, exactly, and I haven't had any large-scale repercussion from it at all. So, in in my in my time and my experience of doing what I do, I haven't seen the backlash of the authority of those groups like like they haven't struck me down for it right.
Speaker 2:So in a way, I've I've seen that it's it's not as necessary as they might think. They are not to think like those people, aren't? Awesome, no, this is good, because I do love that. There are organizations of people that want to promote art and want to make more murals or want to find a way to make it all legit somehow, but some of us that are doing it are just doing it, yeah.
Speaker 1:So you've already kind of done this told us a little bit about who you are. You're a local artist. I know you love that work, so just kind of a reader's digest version for those who are listening or watching, who don't know. Jason Clifton, give us the two-minute drill, three-minute drill on who you are. Who do you want people to know, you as?
Speaker 2:Oh, those are almost two different questions Almost almost. Yeah, oh, those are almost two different questions almost almost um, yeah, uh, god, I mean, I guess. First it was skateboarding. I came here as a skateboarder from california, okay, um, you know, I came here in 1990 the first time and I'd already been into skateboarding. And then here I, I can I skateboarded, I'm a skateboarder for I I still skateboard to this day. Skateboarding is what got me into everything. Um, skateboarding got me into graffiti and music. Um, so yeah, I was part of the skateboarding community here in the beginning. Um, I became the guy from Ellensburg, um, I got good here and then started going to Yakima in Seattle and just kind of got known as the the guy from Ellensburg, um, and started making music in the in in the 90s I was making hip-hop records, um, so there was a group here called Log Hog that was already kind of had a record label and I was signing and doing like the underground hip-hop.
Speaker 1:I just remembered you had a little store, a skateboard store in town.
Speaker 2:I've ran. I ran the mosaic skateboard shop, yeah, 2010. Yeah, so josh mose opened up a skateboard shop here. That was the third one. There was one in moses lake originally where it started, and then richland opened one, and then we opened one here and I ran that. That was after having a spot at static. And then amy clausen and I ran the evil industries back in 2000 main street where robbers roost is at now, which was one. One side of that was a tattoo shop. Then, yeah, when, uh, clayton and Soren were running a shop, that's the shop there and we had the other side.
Speaker 2:So, skateboarding, yeah, what else skateboarding got me into art. So, yeah, skateboarding being from California, like graffiti, was kind of like a part of my life there, uh, and so, yeah, I just kept doing that here. Skateboarding was the skateboarding and music is what I did mostly. And then it wasn't until I had my first kid and I and I was like kind of on my own with my kid wait, first kid. Uh-huh, how many kids do you have? Two? I did not know that. Yeah, I have two. Yeah, but boyle isn't ever at two. Okay, um, older or younger than younger.
Speaker 1:Young. Okay, got it go ahead.
Speaker 2:Um, okay, so two kids and ollie, yeah, yeah so but yeah, mir and I had um ollie and I was kind of on and we weren't together and so I was kind of on my own there and I ran the skateboard shop for the first couple years and then that like the internet kind of killed that having such a select thing in a small town.
Speaker 2:And then that like the internet kind of killed that having such a select thing in a small town. And then the internet was just kind of taking off, not taking off, but like the availability for people to order an exotic goldfish from zimbabwe and have it delivered to their house tomorrow became like obvious. That like it wasn't going to be easy to keep a skateboard shop open and and there's not a lot of skateboarders here, um, so I started making art because I could do that at home and, uh, with another uh kind of like partner person that I was working with, and I got into like I was kind of doing like a master's program basically, um, for art, a working master's process, learning and actually producing work and then doing shows and learning how to price things and uh, you know, where's some of your art for sale right now?
Speaker 2:it's always for sale in my garage, okay it's always for sale. Um, I have a big archive there, but I don't have anything up right now. Okay, yeah, you have.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've seen it oh yeah, yeah, I did the First Friday Art Walk circuit prior to the pandemic. The years up until 2019, when I got Artist of the Year that's kind of how I got Artist of the Year was by doing every single First Friday Art Walk for three years straight. What style is your art? Yeah, it's like a conglomerate I use I basically it's like a. It's a form of screen printing, like, if you understand screen printing, each layer of the screen print requires a screen for each color and you would you know color, separate an image and then blues, yellows, whatever the colors are get a layer. I do all that with hand-cut stencils and spray paint instead of screen printing, and then I use all the street form technique or street art techniques.
Speaker 1:Is anyone else doing that that you know of?
Speaker 2:There's other people that do it, yeah, right, yeah, a lot of people, pretty unique, a lot of people that do it kind of specialize in one thing or the other and kind of stick to a realm. I transgress all the platforms and merge them all together. My idea was to take street art techniques and form them all together to create a fine art. So my paintings are closer to a fine art, a fine art. So, like, my paintings are closer to a fine art. Like what you know, the end process is more of a fine art thing than it is just a street art thing. But I'm using all the various street art techniques to in layers, uh, to produce something like fine at the end, awesome. So it makes it a little more high end, because I had to be realistic about actually making money.
Speaker 2:You know, like art is like a real finicky realm to. I mean, you almost get treated like you're hustling people if you're just trying to be like, oh, I made this painting and you should buy it for this, or like, oh, why is it worth that? Or whatever. But then in in the fine art world, the gallery world, is that that whole world, there are like established levels of what things are worth, right, and so if you're starting to use all the time, your end result starts to be in the realm of that finer art, uh, there is a dollar amount you can attach to it and it becomes way more realistic. Um, to actually make a living at it, right? Yeah, I mean like I'm not getting rich or anything, but I've been paying my own bills for over a decade on art.
Speaker 2:I'm basically alone right, I'll throw in a house, I'll paint a house every once in a while or whatever. But honestly it went from like painting houses to making art and then fully, just like I couldn't really take time away from making and producing art to paint a house. So there was a good minute there when I was only making money, uh, painting murals and paintings and just honestly making all my bills and like able to raise a kid, you know. So yeah, and it's difficult in a small area, you know, like Ellensburg is pretty small, it's like it is.
Speaker 2:I had to stretch out a little bit. I had to start going to Seattle and Yakima and Everett and I just started branching out. Ellensburg has a first Friday art walk but Seattle has two. They have like the first Thursdays and then the third Thursdays in different parts of Seattle. So I started going there and doing the same regimen. I was pulling off in Ellensburg, I was pulling off over there and so I was trying to like diversify the portfolio and get more revenue streams for you, um. So that was really helpful. I had some a lot of success over there and a little bit more money because people were willing to pay for things on a higher scale over there. They appreciated it a little bit more of my effort coming from ellensburg and stuff you know well, that I mean, that's this was.
Speaker 1:This is a perfect segue. I'll get to our first question, um local artists, local musicians, skateboarding, and god, I should just hit my head again. That's how I remember you when I first met you you were heavy, yeah into the skateboarding I still am.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm 45 and I still skate man like, yeah, I love. Yeah, I will never not skateboard man, it's my martial art. Yeah, for sure so we've got.
Speaker 1:we've got a few questions to ask, because Jason and I, you know, we met when I was in my former career as a counselor, and the reason I asked you to come on today is because when I just saw you, what was it? Friday?
Speaker 2:Thursday, thursday, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you said you know six months.
Speaker 2:Yep, six months on Friday. That's why I was like yeah, tomorrow I'm six months, that's so awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Um, I've get. I've created these questions based on that really short conversation and I'm not going to say what you said. I asked you how you did it and you told me you did. So I said I need some more guests, so I asked you and then next week I'm gonna have um cory weininger do you know cory?
Speaker 1:I don't think I know cory's awesome I mean it's possible, we know you probably see, I'm sure, and then the following week will be andy ross back, okay, and they're all men like us that have changed our relationship with drugs or alcohol, drugs and alcohol, whatever the case may be. So here we go. Here's the first question how has your art and music helped to you to navigate your change in relationship with alcohol and or drugs, or just alcohol, whichever?
Speaker 2:you want, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not california, sober I'm legit sober.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's like it's.
Speaker 2:I don't really consider weed a drug. But I mean, obviously it's just the government does and everything um.
Speaker 1:But how's your art and music, because you've always been an artist in the music, right, right, so how's that?
Speaker 2:changed? Um, I don't, it hasn't changed my art or music, but I, becoming sober, requires you to fill a fill a void and that and and the. I guess it's like the purpose. I needed to really focus on what I consider to be my purpose and make that a higher priority than drinking was. I didn't consider drinking a priority, but it but it was right, like in that. In that way, it kind of deludes you because you're always doing it. You don't even realize, like it's almost the highest priority over all the things.
Speaker 2:Sure that you might even be doing great in life? Yeah, um, so it hasn't changed my art or music, but art, music, skateboarding and my relationships with people in those spheres are my focus. They're like they've become more of my purpose and they they're not like filling the void, but like that because that purpose is more important. It's take I don't have any desire to drink, like I don't have any desire because I'm so involved and and more deeply involved in the realms that I already was, and then the interactions that I'm having with people now that I am sober in those realms are just infinitely deeper and more diverse and fulfilling. I was telling you about the study of the rats from the 70s.
Speaker 2:Rats in the cage with cocaine in one bottle and water in the other, when there's nothing to do cocaine to death. They just did it until they died. And then the psychologist comes and was like well, this isn't really how reality works. Let's give them everything they need. Fulfill them. Fulfillment yeah, let's give them toys and food, toys and wheels, things to do, and all of a sudden, with the same choices, little to none of them ever touched the cocaine bottle again. And if they did, it was like momentary. Yeah, because there was outliers, there were, there were rats that did you know dabble in it, but then they, they didn't, then they didn't do it to death. So if the rats know that purpose is important in life, then we should take a lesson from that. And so super cool now I mean I'm already kind of applying that, but like knowing that has given that whole idea like so much credence and relevance. Uh, so it's. It's really just delving my whole psyche into my purpose that's all and of the things that I was already doing.
Speaker 2:it's awesome and, um, I've, yeah, so you, alcohol was just getting in the way. It was like really there was times a couple for the couple of years, before I finally did decide to stop drinking. There was times when, because I started to play guitar and I was like writing songs, and there'd be times when I'd be out drinking and be like get really stoked in a conversation about music and then want to go home and like play, so I'd come home and play, and I couldn't because the response time just wasn't there in my face, biologically the alcohol biology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, alcohol was just affecting it and it was really making me upset. It upset me that, like this thing was getting in the way and now I had to just like not be able to play for the rest of the night because of this choice that I'd made.
Speaker 1:So that helped you to see. It totally helped. It helped you to see. Here's my crisis. If it is where I want to do this music and this is getting in the way, it's got to go, it's got to go. Yeah, you speak to a couple of things that I really like, and one is that and sometimes you do like Some people get into recovery and you need to stay away from this because it's so much associated with drugs and alcohol. You haven't had to do that. It's actually helped you.
Speaker 2:I haven't had to. I honestly don't have a bad relationship with alcohol or drugs in that way. I don't hate them. I don't hate people that do them. I don't hate weed, I don't hate alcohol. I don't hate them. I don't hate people, see that, that do them. I don't hate weed, I don't hate alcohol. I don't like hate. I'm like, oh, I can't be around my family, right, because they drink still, or I can't go to family functions, or no more of this, or no more going to bar.
Speaker 2:Our band plays in bars, yes, right, and bars do have options for people that don't drink, people just don't know, because they go there to drink. But there's a plethora of things to drink at a bar when that don't drink. People just don't know because they go there to drink. But there's a plethora of things to drink at a bar when you don't, and you don't have to drink alcohol, right. So, like I, I find it like really awesome, it's like a superpower to be able to go to a bar and like not feel this obligation to go up to the bar and like order a drink and and continue to get low.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna cut you off because I want people to hear this because you're doing what I I try to talk about, like when you say I don't hate drugs and alcohol and I don't hate people that do we've. I think we have to stop making it this war, this fight against drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 2:Yes drugs and alcohol did a lot of damage to me for sure in my life.
Speaker 1:But in my life today, like I say to people like hey, if you want to drink, please drink. Yes, because I'm not drinking it doesn't bother me, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, that is a beautiful, beautiful thing and I think we need more of that. And I want to say this, if you're listening we were talking about this study they did decades ago. It was actually post vietnam war that they did a study study on rats and the drugs and whether they use them or not. There's a great book and it's high-priced by Carl Hart. He was involved in these studies and he writes about the environmental factors and how, when you give people purpose and resources to feel connected, drugs and alcohol are no longer even like. It's like. No, I'm good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's just a just a simple decision not to yeah. Right, oh, this is this is great. Yeah, cause I yeah, I mean I, I. I hear people talk about how they like can't be around people or I can't go.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's still giving alcohol power over you. I feel so empowered Like I said, it's superpower. I feel empowered to be able to walk into a bar. I feel light and free of the obligation, I can just be there. And now I'm not there to drink, I'm there to talk to people, to play music, to play music and socialize and be a part of the world in a way more engaging way than I could have before, even though I thought that was like that was making me more engaging in some way.
Speaker 2:But really it was just like biological addiction to like bring you to a place to do something which was just fulfilling itself. It's like your meat, your meat machine, just kind of like which was just fulfilling itself. It's like your meat, your meat machine, just kind of like it's filling for it's on its own mission, yeah, to get the things it wants. And as soon as your awareness kind of becomes the pilot, you know you don't need to do that, uh, and and then it kind of controls your, your body. Your body doesn't want the things as much anymore when your awareness is so in control yeah like I don't know.
Speaker 2:There's yeah, I'm good, I'm still like undergoing the change, and so it's still phenomenal to me. It's like there's a phenomenon occurring. It's a biological, mental awareness phenomenon. It's like, oh, your awareness and your mind are really running. Running the body, yeah, and we have choice we have before.
Speaker 2:It's like the body was actually running the show far more than my choice. My actual awareness and choices were so now that I flipped the script on it, it took the power away from my body to be able to dictate to me what I can do. Now my awareness does that I think you'll appreciate this.
Speaker 1:This is what I say and if you've listened to me at all, this will be familiar. As I say, when I was in active use, right, when I was taking drugs, alcohol, whatever it was and I didn't have any knowledge that there was a different way, that's a pretty powerless state, yeah. But the second that I learned and what is happening for you that I learned, that I took away the drugs and alcohol and I learned, oh, there's a different, yeah, and I can use whatever tools an individual uses to shift. I have power, I have a say. I'm no longer powerless and sometimes what I see is some people my friends in recovery and the recovery community is they cling on to that powerlessness, right, and I'm like, no, you have a say, yeah, you do.
Speaker 2:You do amazing things right, you have to embody a certain amount of choices. Yes, that's the work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the steps are involved in that and it's not a bad thing?
Speaker 2:No, no. No, yeah, because the steps are some of the things that you do, but regaining your awareness and your agency of self is probably most likely what Jesus was talking about. You know what I'm saying? At any point in the world right now, there could be another Jesus. People just have to decide to do it. You decide to become him. You don't wait for that external thing. So there is a power that you gain by adopting this agency of self and it starts to take the power of your body away. It's like my awareness and my choices are what I am right you make me think of two things.
Speaker 1:So my friends that are involved in 12-step programs I've been involved in heavily along the way. They're great for people that love them, if that's your thing. It says in the big book of alcoholics anonymous, and I'm not going to say it exactly that we will no longer be concerned with alcohol, the power of alcohol we can, you'll know.
Speaker 2:Serenity yeah, that's kind of the word that we're talking, that maybe serenity is a good word. Yeah, it does encompass it a little bit, but I feel like it's more phenomenal than that, the actual experience of what they consider like serenity. It is a more phenomenal realization in the human experience and it's almost like an, an evolution, yeah, of this mind body thing that's going on.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah it's, and then it's hard to put into words, but like there's something going on there that's far greater.
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh, yeah, and the 12 steps are good. I mean like, yeah, it's they, they're part of it. I think they work, you know, but like the path is to continue to move past that, yes, and to go and grow and get better and better and leave that part behind.
Speaker 2:They're like doors that open you to a new realm, and then once you're in that realm you can just close that door for you and be in a new room and then another door and the human just continues to evolve. You know like, uh, I don't like clinging on to some of the other stuff. It's like, yeah, I mean like I don't forget and I remember, and it is part of my self-motivation not to do to drink again is remembering, sure you know but I'm not gonna continually there.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, don't live there anymore, I'm not going to continually go back there. Yeah, I'm not going to live there at all, yeah. Yeah, all right, here we go. Okay, so I'm going to ask this one how has your creative process changed since stepping into this new chapter of your life? If so, how? If it has changed, at all.
Speaker 2:It hasn't changed at all. Okay Right, it hasn't changed at all. It's just gotten better, it's gotten more focused. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Coming home from the bar frustrated, right, because you can't fucking play what you were talking about at the bar. That doesn't happen anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that doesn't happen. Yeah, totally, I'm free to weave in and out of my creative, creative process. What about? What about friendships? Have those changed? Uh, I don't know if they've changed, but I mean, yeah, I mean some people are awkward around, people that don't drink, that do drink, but I've like I said like it doesn't matter to me. So I've been like really up front. They're like dude, it doesn't bother me at all yeah, good, what you do.
Speaker 2:So so they're saying, so yeah, I haven't had any. Any people like fall away or anything like that. Um, I think everybody's really encouraged by somebody like me getting sober. It probably was a big surprise to people that, like I decided to do it. Yeah, without like a.
Speaker 1:They're like oh you.
Speaker 2:From the judge or whatever you know. Yeah, like it was like I'm going to do this and just see what's up, let's see what happens Right, and like, what was the deciding factor? Oh man, I mean, so there were.
Speaker 2:I did get in some trouble a couple of ago and honestly, it was getting arrested in front of my kid, that like that, that feeling, because it had been like 16 years plus since I'd had any engagement in the law at all and like it was. So that was the a catalyst, yep. But then so like I'd gotten to a point in my drinking where I was like blacking out, okay, right. And so I was like blacking out downtown for hours and hours, oh boy. And then coming home, making food, cooking on the stove, like right, like boiling grease turning, like you know, it was getting crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it started to dawn on me that, like the people around me weren't being like dude, you need to chill out. What's up? They were all sitting back to watch the show. Yeah, so I canceled that show. Good for you. I was like no more episodes of the Jason Black and Out in Downtown show.
Speaker 1:And I think you said I'm a dad and for me, being a dad now a or my most important roles, um I I saw the change in your affect when you said your child saw you get arrested yeah, yeah, they'll never.
Speaker 2:That'll never happen again. Yeah, right, like I was like that show is canceled, yeah and the piece of, and I don't want them growing up watching us I don't want them growing up in a town where, like that's the story of me when they get a little bit older they're going to be out and around and I'll just suddenly be like, oh, I know your dad, he blah, blah. You know what I'm saying? I'm like that show's over, no more of that show.
Speaker 2:So you're shifting the narrative for yourself yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, because I have no idea what that story really looks like. You know, being blacked out is bananas man like, yeah, it's totally, and it was like, and I, you know, I did the alcoholic thing where you like try to like, oh well, maybe if I don't take shots at a point, I'm not gonna black out if I make sure all of this I still, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so, like, you try all the things and so like that's why some of those alcoholics anonymous thing one of those meetings is crazy because, like you hear your story, yeah, over and over and over again about that commonality, right where you like try to make all these adjustments and changes. And, uh, it just got to a point where, like, there'll be one night I could drink like 30 beers and be fine, and the next night I'm blacking out on two beers, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so it's like, uh, my biology is like changing enough yeah my biology is set enough dude like there, and there is no getting around it, there's no skirting it, there's no pattern you can do that's going to make it work. It's just not going to work. So the only option is just not to do it. Remove it. Just remove it and see what happens. Yeah right, and I've had a phenomenal experience being sober. My life is epically better than it was.
Speaker 1:Well, I've always liked you and I think you know this about me. Whether you were drinking or not, I always liked you and love people and I'm here for people, no matter what. But I can say to you that your affect is much different now. It's lighter, yeah, it's, it's like your smiles different. Yeah, yeah, you know, and it's.
Speaker 2:It's super cool to see, yeah, if I just I just feel that there was a, there wasn't like. So there was a different kind of experience I had too, like my. My first, uh, dmt experience, kind of before it was it was one of the parts of the road before I stopped drinking that made me realize like how, how I was affecting myself. Yep, so part of the DMT experience was that, like before that, I was carrying a lot of people's opinion of me. I was like making up opinions of myself from other people's perspective and I was carrying that and I was like letting it inhabit me in this come to find out a really physical way. So my first DMmt experience definitely manifested all those people into the room and, like on during that 10 minute experience, I I knew they were in the room with me. I knew it on this, my whole body knew it, and the person I was doing was like dude, like it's just me here, we're alone, and I was like no, we're not, I know they're all here. I, I knew it. And then, even after like the 10 minutes of being like in the dmt experience, I had this overwhelming sense of I was like looking around, being like are you sure they didn't just like leave or whatever. I couldn't believe it. Then, over the course of the next month, thinking about that experience made me like realize like I'm allowing these people's opinions of me and like I'm manufacturing a shame that I think that they have for me and I'm like carrying it. And once I kind of had that realization that I was doing that.
Speaker 2:I spent the next like few months, like intentionally, not like like forcing that thought out and then literally forcing the, the experience of them out of me and just realizing it like to myself that like that's not real, it's not a real thing and I'm allowing that to happen. And then that started to adapt itself to other things, like, oh, I'm allowing alcohol to do this to me and I'm carrying this, I'm allowing you know. So there was, there was like an evolution of experiences that kind of gave me the mental ability and and realization to to let go of certain things. And had I not had that experience, I wouldn't have been able to put the frame of reference together in my mind that like, maybe alcohol is one of those things also that I'm, that I'm doing besides the physical things, because physical things had been happening, yeah, blacking out had been happening for years, but I still continue to drink.
Speaker 2:There was maybe fleeting moments of like, oh, maybe I should stop drinking, but they just like went away. But until I had some other like profound realizations, I might not have had the the full uh capacity to fully wrap my head around the idea that, like alcohol could go. I could actually do that because I had let go of all these other deeply rooted things and uh. So I let go of a lot of things. That's what got me to this lighter place, like once I started letting the people's shame go and then letting these other things go, the light, just like I just got. I just felt lighter. I feel so like when I walk into a bar or a room anywhere I don't have, I feel like I'm just completely open and chill. Yeah, right, like it's a. It's definitely a, it's, and I'm still kind of getting used to it. It's cool, right. Like it's an interest, it's like a phenomenon.
Speaker 1:It's very strange. Okay, let's do this. Uh, what's one piece of hope you'd share with someone who feels stuck in their relationship with alcohol oh man, we've all got the same set of tools.
Speaker 2:I mean I don't know. I mean I don't feel like I'm an expert on it. You know, I don't have like 30 years of sober on it. I don't have 30 years of sobering, my mom's 27 years and, god bless, her man. So I don't know what I have to offer, except for my experience.
Speaker 1:Let's say you have someone that comes to you and says, Dude, I really want to stop drinking, but I just don't feel like I can. I don't feel like there's any hope. What would you share with them?
Speaker 2:Fuck, man, like the crazy thing is that it has to be a decision from you. Okay, right, I mean, like you, you have to decide that it's what you want to do and that you are prepared to do anything to do it. Right, like you have to. Really kind of like just, I mean, I don't know, it doesn't seem hopeful to a lot of people, but it's just, it's just knowing that it's possible. Maybe, like I like the idea of like you can tell people whatever you want to and talk to your blue in the face, but people don't like to be told what to do. So embodying the thing and being the thing and then showing by example is is probably the best way people learn. Yeah, um, so I probably just open myself up to those people and be like, come hang out with me. Yeah, uh, dude, like if you want a drink, just call me and come over.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know I'm not going to and just be around somebody who's not, and uh, absorb it a little bit. You know I mean you somebody who's not. Yeah, and uh, absorb it a little bit. You know, I mean, you've raised kids so you know that the human brain is just like a sponge. Kids don't really know anything, they just imitate everything they see and then that becomes them yeah, yeah, um. I don't think people ever stop doing that. Yeah, I don't think so. So I think that's just kind of how the human mind works. So being around somebody that's an example of what you want to be is a good way to become that thing in your own way, you know, because you just inherently start picking it up by example.
Speaker 2:It makes me think of two things it would be hard for me to say something philosophical or something helpful, hopeful, that would make somebody listen, because I don't feel like people want to listen, but if you're just around somebody, you're hurting and you're right right, but just offering a portion of your life up and be, I mean I would totally do that. I would totally do that to anybody you know, like yeah, dude, just come over. You don't be around me, you know make me think of two things.
Speaker 1:One is and I say this cause I get calls or someone will ask me well, what can I do? And I say this to people because people especially if it's your child or your spouse you're like wanting to fix them and change them Right, well meaning.
Speaker 2:But what you just said is a lot of times.
Speaker 1:People don't want that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes you can't.
Speaker 1:No, sometimes the best thing we can do and what you just said is this is model the behavior yeah, just be yeah.
Speaker 2:I honestly invite them into your world right, right.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing is your circle of influence. I teach on this, I preach on this, I talk about this if you change who you're hanging out with. This is where I agree with drug and alcohol counselors that say you're gonna have to change who you hang out with. Yeah, I agree with it. To have to change who you hang out with, yeah, I agree with it to an extent. But you know, hang out with me, come, come spend time with me. Yeah, I'm not going to give you all this advice or all these tips or anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just come, because I don't know. Yeah, I'm just figuring it out. Right, I'm literally just walking the it. It occurs to me that this is working and that's right and so like. It just becomes this own self-realization that every person has to have. And then they get it. But it can't be described. Yeah, you write a thousand self-help books with your 50 years of sobriety. Well, it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Yeah, like, all of that's the same empty advice that anybody could give you. That has the experience. But until the person like, has the realization and the want or the the intent rises in them, then they know the thing and it can only happen within a person. It can't be told.
Speaker 1:It's like it's, it's a knowing, you know so the hope you would give is is pretty simple. It's like and you're not saying this in some kind of I'm special, but hang out with me, spend time with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if I can do it, you can do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, literally, if I can do it yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, if I can do it, then anybody can do it Right.
Speaker 1:I say this I'm you know, I'm DrD and I got. I'm not the smartest guy in the room.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm not like I don't know much. There are people that know. But what I do know is I just keep moving forward. You've said that a couple times, right, and I just do the next indicated thing. Yeah, right, yeah, I stay away from drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I do the next indicated thing. I step into my passion in a different way, right, right way, right, right, right.
Speaker 2:I hold the image of success out there, yeah, but there is no plan to get to it, it's just that the image of success is there and whatever happens in between here and there, yeah, that gets me there. Yeah, I say yes to, yeah, and I don't know what that looks like until it's happening and I say yes and just keep moving forward and then eventually that goal, I'm coming forward to that goal and we meet somewhere halfway. But there is no way or plan, perfect. It's just the way to be in yourself all the time and then that just gets you there, because there is no destination, it's just the journey. You're just where you're at at any given moment.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I give up on the destination, destination, and give up on believing in belief systems and just know and go with what I know. Right, because believing is just like a doubt. Like if you believe something, you can only believe something that you don't know it's. There's a doubt inherent to like you know, you don't believe in your parents, you know them. You have to believe in Jesus because you don't believe in your parents, you know them. You have to believe in jesus because you don't know jesus right.
Speaker 2:So like believing is a trap. In a way it's like a crutch, like, oh, I believe, I believe. So I just gave up on believing and believing and I just operate on what I know to be true, what I know from experience, like, if I do this, this will happen. There's consequences, but right or wrong don't really exist. Those are just ideas you can make, murdering a person right in the right situation. If you had, like somebody was going to kill your kid and you killed that person, that could be considered right, right, some people might applaud you for that Right.
Speaker 2:Even though it's wrong, it could be considered right. So right and wrong are just ephemeral consequences, are the truth there's. Only if you do this this will occur. That's a knowing right. You can believe right and wrong, but you you can't know that because in any one given situation it could be either or so. It's not a no thing, it's a belief thing. Knowing something by experience is a far safer realm to be in. If you want to take personal agency back, beautiful.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're gonna wrap this up cool. Last question oh, what's? Uh? What's something you've always wanted to ask me, or what's something, during this 40 minutes that we've talked, that you want to ask me?
Speaker 2:Good question. Yeah, Uh, honestly, probably. How do you see me? Oh, what's your opinion of me? Maybe like I don't get to know that one very much. I'm like living the thing and doing it. Yeah, I'm not like self absorbed, but I'm pretty focused on going.
Speaker 1:So what does that look like To me? Yeah, no, that's cool. And then I'm going to ask you that about me, because it's an interesting question, because we kind of walk in different worlds. We're not hanging out all the time. You as highly engaged in the community, as someone who values community, who, someone who values his art and his expression of art and just, uh, all around. Every time I've interacted with you before you found recovery and even now I've always enjoyed our interactions. Cool, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And you me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, you've been great. I remember when I first met you in treatment back in Barth. Yeah, you were awesome.
Speaker 2:Okay, you were by far the best counselor there and I could tell that you actually cared about what you were doing. You weren't there because it was a job Sure, right, I could tell that because it was a job sure, right, like I could tell that. Like. So I grew up in california with a lot of uh, I don't know, people know your story, but you're like you were up, you, you were like into meth and stuff oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally so where I'm from in california, that's everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I, I knew right away, like what, what your story was. Um, because I grew up in it, yeah and uh, and I, so I, I had like this affinity for you. I was like, oh, dude, like I know you've come out of the hardest, the hardest thing to get over, right, um, yeah, so there was a that I, I immediately knew that, like there was, there was a real authentic authenticity. Authenticity to you, yeah, yeah and and you're wanting to help people, because I've seen people come out of that and I've seen people like have that, take them all the way right and like so, yeah, it's been very cool and yeah, all the way through to now, yeah, man, you've always been really positive. I can tell you really care about what you do, you're engaged, you're enthusiastic, you're a little ridiculous and I love it I love.
Speaker 2:I love the vulnerability yeah that you're able to express because of that uh, that freedom, uh of self and uh, yeah, you've been absolutely encouraging yeah good right, as as a person in the community, for sure I've always been encouraged by you to be like oh yeah, there's a success story yeah right like that's what, that's what keeping it real going right looks like, yeah, you know awesome so, yeah, all right, friends.
Speaker 1:Well, that's another episode of deep dive with dr d. This one was a pretty awesome one, probably one of my favorite guests thus far and, if my son's listening, you were great, son. But thank you for joining me, jason, until next time.