Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
Breaking Cycles And Building Futures (w/guest Zaire Preston)
Some stories don’t just turn corners; they redraw the map. Zaire joins us to share how she rebuilt a life from the ground up: eight years sober, a single mom of two, and a graduate student on the path to becoming a school psychologist. What began with survival—sleeping outside, losing custody for a time, clawing back trust—grew into a steady life shaped by boundaries, spiritual surrender, and an open-eyed commitment to her kids.
We get real about the “pink cloud,” the quiet work of staying sober after the glow fades, and the power of remembering pain without living in it. Zaire talks through learning to say no without guilt, shifting from eldest-child fixer to a mom who models self-respect, and standing up to an overreaching supervisor by creating graduate assistant guidelines so no one else has to burn out in silence. It’s a masterclass in self-care as service.
The turning point toward school psychology came from the other side of the table. Before any diagnosis, a school psychologist recognized her son’s needs and opened the door to services that transformed his early education. That moment reframed labels as keys, not cages. We explore what school psychs actually do—evaluation, intervention, family partnership, and building equitable systems that adapt to children. It’s behind-the-scenes work that changes trajectories.
Threaded through is a bigger theme: breaking generational cycles. The teen leaning into Running Start, the first grader with the right supports, the mom who shows up with presence rather than perfection—these are milestones of a new family story. If you’ve ever wondered whether small steps matter, this conversation says yes. Do the next right thing, pause when you want to control everything, and don’t stop before the miracle happens.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review so more people can find these stories. Your support helps us bring real voices and real tools to more ears.
Hi everyone, welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. Uh our Sunday 9 a.m. live recording. And I always do my shameless plug for my book. If you don't have it yet, I asked Dyer. I've already given you a copy. Of course I did. So you can get it wherever you buy books, uh, locally at Gerald's and Pearl, Pearl Street Books and Gifts, uh online at Amazon. You can get that as an ebook wherever you read those. And then yours truly narrated it on uh Audible. So there you go. Uh welcome to the show. Um Your Why We're Here today. Uh I have Zaire Preston with me, and I've known you since 2001, I think. Since was that the year you guys. You guys, so I yeah, I met you guys in the fall when I moved here.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Uh I've known you a long time. Long time. Um I consider Zaire family. Um, you're your family. That's that's what you are. Um I met her when she was a little girl, and uh we have our hungry hippo days when you work. Was that your first job? It was my first.
SPEAKER_01:My first paid job, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um, and I've known her mom, uh, Barbara, and her siblings um for a long time. So you're why we're here. Um, I'm excited to have you on the show. So why don't you, and I always say this to guests, um, you know, this goes out to the world, so keeping in mind some people will just be hearing from you for the very first time. Other others know you. Um, introduce yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. So um I'm a person in recovery. Um I am a single mother, um, a local of Ellensburg. Um, I have two two children that have, you know, they're my reason for living. Um, you know, I don't think I know that um without them um I might still, you know, really be struggling. And um they're, you know, a big part of um I think who I am today, especially my daughter. She I basically grew up with her, right? I had my daughter at 20 years old and uh still had a lot to learn. And um now she's my best friend and my um and my you know number one. Yeah, my dad. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:What grade she is? Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Um she's in 10th grade and she's an online student this year. Okay. So she's amazing, gets to help at home um and pick up jobs and gr do the growth. It's so weird. She's just yeah amazing, but she's you know, and she we still have the teenage stuff, you know, that's like and you know, um 14, 14, 15, 15, yeah. Yep, and so she's got her driver's permit and stuff like that, you know. Um, and we still go through some of that like um what would you call that? Almost like tension, parent and teenage tension when they want to be really independent and they want to make decisions and um at the same time um we come around and we're just like it's me and her, you know. Um, and then Desmond is my son, and he's seven, and uh he is in first grade here. Uh he it has autism and he's an another big, you know, he kind of pushed me into this field that I'm going in. So that's the other thing. I'm a I'm a grad student at Central Washington Um University and uh in my second year and I work as a graduate assistant helping to teach classes, um, you know, among all the other things that are going on. And um yeah, yeah, I I think, you know, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Single mom, two kids. We got to know Desi this summer because he was at the preschool. Yeah. Uh he's awesome. Uh, and I love seeing you and your daughter, and just hearing you talk about your relationship with your daughter reminds me of Tyler and Anthony. Um that um I, you know, me and Tyler had a dad-son talk recently, and we were just I was sharing with him one of the things I really admire is the relationship he has with Anthony. That sometimes I'm like, you know, that's not your brother, that's your son. Yeah, but also with that, they have a closeness that I think is pretty powerful, and I hear that from you. Yeah. And then you also talk about the struggle of having a teenager. He talks about that too. Um, yeah, so that's cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's it's um, I I don't know, there's something different about, you know, and if I could have, you know, my daughter, the experience that she had as a child is polar opposite the experience that my son is having, right? Because um I didn't know left from right, you know, I was a kid, I didn't know anything, you know, and having a a child out, um, you know, it was she was like an attachment of me, you know. It was like she was everywhere I was, she was. And, you know, she um had to go through, I think, a more because I was still growing up, you know. And then we have Desmond, and I had a little bit more, you know. I was um toolkit, right? Yeah, I was well, and I was almost 30 years old. So it was just I just maturity even, you know, um, just more aware of of how myself or how my actions um impact my children. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, you know, there's there's the hard part and like recognizing that stuff. Um, but I know that that also has created this, you know, like we are bonded and we've gone through this stuff together, you know. It's just and there is a friend aspect to it, and it's hard to keep that in in balance, right? Because we'll go driving around and we'll listen to you know, her I let her put on her like rap music or whatever, and we're doing our thing, and um, that is like some of the the funnest times, you know. The other day she said to me, Um, I hope, I hope when I grow up um I have a daughter and she's my best friend, like you're mine. And I was like, you know, it just it gives you it's like the best feeling, and then we have our days where stay out of my room and you know, it's like so it's it's really up and down, but um I I I wouldn't change it, you know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So grad school. Yeah, yeah. I I uh I've it's been an honor to be, you know, kind of a peripheral part of this journey. Um, because I remember it was last year, a little before this time, where you were debating whether you were gonna go to Central or Montana and just being able to have a part in walking with you through that, and here you are now, and you're starting your second year to become a school psychologist. Did you ever think?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, no, yeah, no, yeah. It that's beyond my wildest yeah, you know, I'm just super excited for it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I want someday for you to meet my niece Angel, she is a school psychologist. Oh she's uh she's a mental health counselor. I don't think she's uh technically a school, but she does counseling in a high school and she has her journey as a person in recovery. And who better to really help kids in that high school environment or in any school environment that have walked similar paths in some ways where you can intervene and but you're man, you're gonna wow, you're gonna change lives. Yeah, you're gonna be able to to come in ahead of time to help so many kids and their parents.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Right? Because that's one of the things I love about Katrina with the preschool is she doesn't just help the kids, she helps the parents. You're gonna, oh my gosh, I'm super excited for you. And that's going well. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, I think that's one of my um, and it's a actually a special interest of mine, right? Is because I've gone through these experiences, it, you know, in a way, it it does feel like um when I get there, it'll be full circle. It'll be on the other side, you know, because I've been on the parent side of the table and um gone through these things and it it feels like sometimes an uphill battle, right? It's like non-stop, no matter how much I try, no matter what I do, there's just this barrier, barrier, barrier. And um, you know, not only helping the kids, right? Because it's it's really finding kids um the resources and the tools and the school structures that they need to be successful in that classroom, right? Yeah, but also for their family, you know, and just reaffirming for their family that um you know we're gonna take care of your child. Yeah, you know, that your child is safe in a school system. And that's like I just really excited to be able to um, you know, support people through that, through that whole process. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So you've lived in Ellensburg since 98. So you pretty much how old were you?
SPEAKER_01:Um nine.
SPEAKER_04:Nine.
SPEAKER_01:Nine or ten, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And directly prior to that, where were you guys? Montana or on the west side?
SPEAKER_01:Um, we were in Seattle.
SPEAKER_04:You were in Seattle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And your dad passed, yes. Yeah, he died a while.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh. And um 2014. I remember 15. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was really rough.
SPEAKER_04:So I'm sure. Yeah. And then um your mom, you know, I I watched your mom as a single mom a lot of the time herself raising you kids, and the the one thing I've always admired about your mom is oh man. Wasn't planned at all. Me and your mom had a lot of talks when you and Tyler were were out in the thick of addiction. And um but your mom loves you kids so much, and I've always admired her her level of commitment to you guys, and I'm sure it wasn't perfect, you know. I know I wasn't, but um, your mom's a pretty cool cat. Yeah. Um and now she's a grandma, and I know she has that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and what's really amazing is that um, you know, she's my best friend. So it's really it feels, you know, it's hard to be a single mom. And um, you know, it's really there's I I don't really know one easy aspect about it, but um there is this part where, you know, they have all my attention and all my you know, not all, I shouldn't say that, but you know, they are and I know it was like that for my mom, you know, and um um not ever giving up, you know, and even though, you know, she had to put up put up boundaries, right? And I couldn't even imagine, you know, the the shit that we put her through, you know, it's like uh no, I'm gonna cry, you know. It's like um I think about if Deanna ever and I don't know if I'd make it. I don't know if I would make it if she I I don't know. It just there's n you can't even speak on it unless you're going through it. But um Yeah, me, me and then mom had a lot of talks to continue. I mean, I'd show up at her door and just to keep and then you know, if she didn't if I couldn't get her at the door, I knew the Thursday night meeting. Oh that was my other way in. Oh wow. You know, it I always would go to that meeting and be like, hey mom. Oh yeah. So I mean I that but you know, I did and the last what's crazy about it is the last time I I showed up, I was pregnant and I had been sober for a couple of months. Um and uh I I think that I did go to her house, but a couple of times, you know, I did go to that meeting and we'd be able to just connect for that hour, right? That little that little moment it was in a safe room, and so it's just man, there's just been recovery's been there all along. Yeah, and that's what's no, I was in the rooms when I was nine years old. Yeah, and that that what what was that place called? The the uh Allah something?
SPEAKER_04:Uh Alano Club.
SPEAKER_01:Alano Club. Alano Club.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I remember over by the boat. Yeah, and me and Kristen's uh do you remember Kristen? Yeah, yeah, her I can't remember her son's name, but we and we us kids of the parents of the who were alcoholics would go and play outside while the adults were in there smoking their cigarettes.
SPEAKER_04:See, I missed that club. I came right after it had closed and they had moved over to uh Third Street, yeah. Union Hall.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, really cool. Like, and and what I want to say to you that I say to Tyler and you know, I have to give myself credit for, but you're breaking generational cycles of addiction.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Like your daughter and your son, yeah, look at your daughter. How old is she?
SPEAKER_01:Fifteen.
SPEAKER_04:Look at her trajectory right now, I know, and how much different it is. I know. And Anthony. Yeah. Anthony, I pay attention to these things, and I want you paying attention to them. We were at the uh his brother's football game, right? Which he's there, yeah, and I was actually he was actually watching some of them. Like, great, yeah, he's actually watching. He's a teenager, he's got but he's like, I want to go climb that hill. He's almost 15 and he's wanting to just play and go climb the hill.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_04:Like you're creating that. You're you and your mom breaking generational circles of a date. Yeah, the ch the chances of you know your children having struggles, sure, they're still there, but there's so much less.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, and looking at it from that, you know, you forget while you're in it, right? Because it's like, ah, but when you're looking from the outside, I mean, when I was my daughter's age, whoo, I was already doing the crazies, you know, and um she's wants to do running start. She might get her, she might graduate high school with her AA, you know, associate degree. And I'm like, that's just I don't know, it's just really, really amazing.
SPEAKER_04:And you've done that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You've you've facilitated her having that environment to be able to do that. And Tyler's done that for Anthony to go to his first homecoming dance. That little effer. Oh, I cuss all the time. That little fucker went to his first right, and and uh he he's got stuff, but not near. And you as parents have created that for your kids. You've been in long-term recovery for a while now, about how long?
SPEAKER_01:Um, it'll be geez, eight years.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. So a while. Yeah. Okay. When you look back, what do you think helped you hold on when things fell at the hardest? And this could be an early recovery or in recovery or pre-recovery, you know, when you were contemplating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um well in terms of early recovery, um I think it it sounds really the opposite. Um, you know, when I was getting first getting sober again, um, this time felt a lot different. Um because I d I don't know, it's it was a spiritual experience. That's uh the only way I know how to say it. But I think, you know, once you get past that kind of like, wow, I am so, this is so amazing. I can't believe this just happened in my life. I'm sober, right? For any amount of days. Um but you get past that a little bit, you know, the what do they call it? The pink cloud. Pink cloud. Pink cloud.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you get that you start to come down from that a little bit, and you're like, you know, oh, there might be things that happen that don't, you just the you have the expectation, or there's like um, you know, things that come up. And for me, um the thing that really helped me hold on, and it sounds really opposite, but was just remembering how painful it was. I I was like my low was so low that I just there was nothing else for me. I knew that that was I was gonna die. You know, I just knew it. And in fact, I like invited it. And um and when I finally was able to get sober, it was like there's no way. There's no way I could ever go back. There's you know, the worst day that I ever had sober was better than one of any of the days, you know. Um and so I think you know, there's that saying in the big book that they say um we don't dwell in the past, but we nor do we wish to shut the door on it. And so it wasn't that I dwelled in the pain. You know, it wasn't like, you know, oh I had all this, you know. But um I I grew from it and yet um it just it I almost felt like repulsed by thinking about using. Um and you know, and and that's in terms of of like recovery and and using and stuff, in terms of like, you know, mental health and emotional health. The thing that kept me holding on the most was um um, you know, I think it was building back and getting back relationships in my life. You know, I I didn't have very many, um, but I could call my mom, I could, you know, call um my sister, and um that was I never, you know, those people were out of my life for so long. Um and they didn't trust me, you know, and there were all these things, and I had those things back and it was like um a gift, you know. And um creating a little bubble of peace in my life, I that just kept me so steady. Um, you know, because stuff still happened that was like uh what am I supposed to do, you know? Yeah, um COVID happened.
SPEAKER_02:I mean it was crazy. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But somehow I had this I had this little apartment, you know, and it was the first apartment that I had in seven years. I had been homeless for so long, you know, and the type of homeless where it was like everything I owned was on my back, you know, it was like primarily Yakima? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Is that where you got your first apartment? Um no, I got it in Ellen's where it was up here.
SPEAKER_01:Came back. Yeah, I I well uh you know, I went through the trenches and in Yakima, so I started using when my uh when I was 16. So from 16 to 28, I was an active addiction. And um had little bouts here and there, you know, birth of my daughter was able to get sober, but I I nothing ever stuck. And um I you know, I hate to say it, but it was like I don't I just I couldn't I couldn't see that there was another way. You know, I would always go back and I had all this, you know, stuff that was like needed to be um and I couldn't live.
SPEAKER_04:What what do you think? Um, because I I think about this. What do you think were the little nuggets that gave you glimmers of hope during that really rough time when you you had everything you owned on your back and you're on the streets? Yeah. What were the nuggets of hope?
SPEAKER_01:Man, um, it's it it's really crazy, it sounds, um, but you know, I would at that point in my life I had um lost a lot of my hope, right? I mean like the the world was dark. I mean, I went by a different name, I was a completely different person. But um sometimes, you know, that trickle of my my spiritual foundation would tri trickle in and I'd um I'd see something or I'd experience something a certain way and just be like, I know that was that was that was something bigger than me. Yeah, that was, you know. Um in the beginning, you know, I'd it was holding on so I could get back to my daughter, you know, but and it it really it just hurt.
SPEAKER_04:You had lost your daughter.
SPEAKER_01:I I so um I yes, so she did go um into CPS custody once in her life. Um, but I got her back four months later. Okay. So she was in foster care for four months, and that that was really hard.
SPEAKER_04:Um was that a moment where you like I gotta change?
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, I got into treatment real quick. Um that's how I got her back.
SPEAKER_04:Um was she with you on the streets?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_04:Where was she?
SPEAKER_01:Um, so she was with her dad.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, what was she? So she was for Ryan. Ryan. Yeah, so she was four years old when I found out. So I had been sober here and there. I was in tri-cities, it was like a a place that, you know, a place. And my mom had taken her on a trip to Montana, and in that time period I uh was going swimming, I found out I had a warrant, went to jail. Okay. Yeah.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:So was able in your bathing suit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, my shorts and a tank top, soaking wet. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Isn't that always great? Yep.
SPEAKER_01:It's like, oh, I was like, cool.
SPEAKER_03:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, go on.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and oh man, they put in the sh, you know, they give you your clothes back. It was like great. Yeah, it was not fun. Um, but you know, I was like, okay, I need to I need to take care of my warrant, I need to go to treatment, I need to do stuff. And I think those were my rationalizations, you know. But I knew somewhere in there, I registered that I was on my way down again and that I was gonna probably start using. And I just was like, you know what, I'm not, I can't, you know, and I called Ryan and I said, I need help with Diana. I need you to take care of your daughter. I'm gonna go do this and I'm gonna go do this. He showed up because he hadn't been in her life at all.
SPEAKER_04:At all. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:He showed up and um, you know, I trusted that he because he lived with his dad and there was a structure and he had a home and stuff like that. And, you know, in my mind, you know, in that time I'm like, uh, I'm gonna go for 28 days and then I'll get her back. Well, I went to treatment for a week and I left. And then I went right to the street. Okay. And I was there for five years.
SPEAKER_04:What treatment was this?
SPEAKER_01:Um that one was Sundown. Oh, Sundown. Yeah, I've been to Sundown so how many times? Um twice. Okay. Yeah, but I've been to treatment seven times.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:And I always say it takes what it takes. It is, yeah. One or twenty.
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Um So the hope, so if I'm hearing you correctly, the the nuggets of hope were kind of a spiritual thing for you that would just kind of come in here and there. But it was dark. Yeah. It was really dark. I didn't know you went by a different name.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It was really weird.
SPEAKER_04:I probably wouldn't have recognized you. No. Yeah. Mm-mm. This is down Rakama first half.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like one of those people with the bikes and the backpack, and I dressed like a boy. No, that didn't you wouldn't know that I was a girl. It was just nuts. It was a whole different thing.
SPEAKER_04:You know me, I'm this guy. Look at you now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Look at you now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Like in my heart, just like I'm so filled. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think it was little things that would just happen, and I'm like, okay, I'm not alone. You know, but no more brief little times, you know, or I'd I'd figure out how to reach um and call and how is how is, you know, are they doing okay? You know, for a long time I couldn't call them in. Yeah. Um, but even then, you know, you're so out of it that it was it definitely like it sometimes it was just something happening in my life that just like I knew that was there for a reason. And I was like, okay. I mean, okay, here's one thing. Um I was sleeping on the side of a building or just not at all. I don't know. And um this man like found me and said, Do you need help? And I was like, I don't know. And uh he got me a job at a hotel. Yeah, and I started cleaning the hotel, but you know, and it was still crazy, and I was still using and stuff, but I had a place I had a room, I had a room and I could leave I could shower, and you know, um I cleaned the rooms and pretty much ran this hotel and one of these nasty hotels, but it was that was a little thing. It was a little thing, you know.
SPEAKER_04:This is just a man seeing you and saying, Hey. Yeah. And he was authentic in his need. Yeah, you didn't want to watch it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It was uh this old, it was like probably 80 or something, but um so I'd never thought of this.
SPEAKER_04:I don't know if we've had this conversation. So when I returned to use in 06, the fall of 06, I I had an expressway down to Yakima. Were you down were you in active use during that time?
SPEAKER_01:Oh six?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, 06-07.
SPEAKER_01:No, no. You were in no, because I was uh I was still in high school. Oh god, yeah, yeah. Okay, no, but yeah. My my time with you was when during your relapse.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:During the Hunger Hippo days. Yeah. Yeah. And what was the boy you were hanging out with? Adam. Adam, that's right. Yeah, you guys stayed at Saras for a little bit. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah, it was it turned chaotic real quick. Yeah. Gosh. Yeah. Yeah, you were still in high school.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I have this memory of you guys, of course, in the Tahoe? Tahoe. Yeah. I don't know why I always want to call it a Duringa. And you had the oh, maybe okay. And you had these subwoofers in there, and you used to remember that song that came out, Welcome to Jam Rock.
SPEAKER_04:Didn't even Marley Dimmy. I still love that album.
SPEAKER_01:And I always knew when it was you driving.
SPEAKER_04:Welcome to Jam Rock.
SPEAKER_01:Like bumping. It was like, oh my gosh, there we go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Coming into the shop after hours.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean I remember the one time we came in and you were cleaning up and we're acting like shits and we're I was throwing candy in the kennel and everything.
SPEAKER_01:Like food fight. It was straight up food fight. I was so pissed. Tyler seemed to be a few. I just cleaned it, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Did you ever work with Tyler?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I didn't work with Tyler, but Tyler was uh Sarah's. Yeah. You know, so I we got to hang out a little bit there and whatnot, but um God, that seems like a different life, doesn't it?
SPEAKER_04:Were you there the day that the fateful day that Tyler challenged Sarah to drinking?
SPEAKER_01:And he nonstop puked?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:You yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You guys had a you guys had a ping pong fight before that, and there was like ping pongs were everywhere. All over. Like I was like, what are they doing? You know, because I was just a weed smoker back then. All I did was smoke.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, so you were an other one.
SPEAKER_00:I was like, what is going on? What is going on? Yeah, I was wow. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sometimes, but you know, I it feels like a whole different life.
SPEAKER_03:And well it was, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and you know what? We got to it there's something about like, you know, whether you use together or you don't, but just something about knowing somebody for that amount of time and going through just the stuff dirt, you know, and the and and then coming around and this is how we live and this is possible. That's like it, I don't know. I'm always gonna be bonded to you and to Sarah. I'm always gonna be bonded to you guys. And I don't, you know, know if it's just because of that or because you know what, we've known each other for 25 years or whatever, but well, I think if we just had that experience and nothing else, it'd be different.
SPEAKER_04:But your family.
SPEAKER_01:And Katrina, I mean, all you guys that was like early, early. Yeah, you know, when the AA group was doing the Yeah, there was it was a tight community for that period of time.
SPEAKER_04:I remember that.
SPEAKER_01:I remember you guys we would have New Year's parties and you guys would come over to the house and whatever. I have pictures, we'd bang pots and pans on third.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. On third. Yeah. Yeah. Because I ended up living in the Duke.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, that's right. And then your song was um shorty, or not shorty, what's that? Shaggy. Shit. Shorty of my angel. Nonstop bumping that song. And uh, we'd go over there and what's this guy doing?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's funny.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, wow. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Let's do this one. As a mother, student, and person in recovery, how do you balance giving to others while still protecting your own peace and progress? And so think about this as a mom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:As a mentor, a sponsor.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, this was something that I really, really struggled with, you know, my whole life. I mean, you could look at like some of the socialization part of it, right? Like, okay, I'm the eldest child of a dysfunctional alcoholic family. I always take care of the family. You know, when I picked up those roles, that hero child stuff. And so from the get, I was always the person to fix, or always the person to um, oh, you can rely on me.
SPEAKER_04:You know, responsible.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, growing up, I I I that was That was you, yeah. That was my identity. My I identified and then it became like the way I identified myself was with another person and making sure that that person was okay, that they were okay, I was okay, and they were not okay, I was not okay, and associating so much, and that um that evolved, of course, you know. Um, and in in recovery, you know, I had to learn that um who I am, my time, my energy, my you know. Whatever it is that I is precious, and that I get drained and I don't help anybody when I can't say no. Um, and that took a long time for me. It took a really long time, and um, even putting up a boundary or saying actually that really doesn't work for me, I would feel guilty, I'd feel ashamed. Oh, I'm not good enough, you know, and and today the way that I balance that, um, and I am able to um, you know, put up boundaries and I right off the get, you know, um, when I have, let's say, like a sponsor or sponsee relationship, you know, I say this is you know what I need as a sponsor, you know, um, because it can quickly get so easily about the other person and supporting and pulling your lifeline, you know. And um, and that even goes for my kids, you know, like with my daughter, you know, and with Desi, and that I, you know, you want to give them everything because you love them so much, but um, I'm like, no, I'm not, I can't do that. I I don't have the energy to do that right now. Right now is my time. And um, and actually being able to put up that boundary now instead of guilt and shame, it's feels so freeing. It feels so like I don't know, I feel uh I feel um like a person, you know, and that was like something I didn't think was possible. I didn't know how to do those things. Um and so, you know, I think the way that I do it is really keeping in in tune with my um my center and when I'm getting off balance, then I'm able to know, oh, you know, what is this that stuff that's going on right now? And I can do a check-in with myself and I can say, okay, you know, am I doing things that are against my values? Am I resentful, like, you know, oh, you know, I I don't want to do it, but I'm going to, you know, or something like that. Um, if I can do these checklists, then I can um make a conscious awareness to be like, oh, you know, I'm getting off balance. And being able to do that, um, I'm able to, you know, say, okay, what do I need to do to get to take care of myself? And um, that's a huge thing. It it I do struggle with it with school, you know, that's almost a given. It's just non-stop kind of stuff. And um, you know, I went through last year, I went, I was a uh G A, a TA last year too, and I had this supervisor who was um just overbearing, you know. She wanted me to design the course, and she would email me at 10, 11, 12 o'clock at night and can you go and fix this? I want it this way, and I'd do it. And you know, first year was really hard on me anyway. So I was up and I'd be doing these things for her, designing her course for her, and send it to her or upload it, and she'd be like, Oh no, I don't I don't quite want it that way. I need to do it, I want it a different way. Oh, I want to uh actually compare. And no matter what I did, it wasn't what she wanted, and so I finally had to get to the place where I was like, listen, I'm here to help you with grades, I'm here to do this, this, and this, and I'm not here to teach your course by myself, like you know, and um if you you know are needing that kind of stuff, because I think she worked or did something else and she was a distance teacher. Um, but you know what I did with that? I created a document and I worked with the head of the department, created a document about uh graduate assistant guidelines. Wow, boom, wow, and and the supervisor has to sign it, has all the expectations, has you know things about relationship and how to how to do relationship conflict and uh sad that you're the one that had to do that, but yeah, I'd be awesome. Yeah, well, you know, and the other thing I said uh which I never would have done, I went to the um head and I said yeah, chair, and I said, I I I'm unwilling to work with this person again. I will not. And please, you know, only if there is something else. And I don't, I honestly don't think anyone else should work with her until she gets her stuff together. But that's not my call. I'm just saying for me, yeah. I I'm not willing to. And um, yeah, it was scary because I didn't know, you know, when you're thinking about people that have more power than you, you don't really know. It's a little bit different than saying, actually, I don't have time right now to just someone who's, you know, whatever, but it was received really well, and um, and I've and I was validated, and so it was like, okay, that is I can do those things. You know, you learn, I'm learning still about the self-care, yeah, self-care and the professional side of self-care. It's critical. Yeah, which you know I never would have known because I was a waitress, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So I learned something about you that um just it I guess I knew it at some level, but you're the oldest. You're my brother Bob. When you were talking about, you know, you're the caregiver, you're the fixer, you're I'm the youngest of four.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:And uh my brother Bob was the oldest, and he was in that role. Crazy fan, you know, you know, my childhood was just chaos all the time, and he was the fixer. He was the one um that had to, you know, as a kid himself, yeah, have to care for us kids, you know, and so um that's a lot, that's a heavy weight that I know he's had to bear along the way. And uh, you know, we're a little older than you guys in the trajectory of age and all that, and he's in his 60s now, and he I haven't seen him happier in his life than just recently. He moved to Arizona, he rekindled a relationship with the high school sweetheart, and and I think in his life now he doesn't feel that weight as much as it used to, but you older kids, the hero.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really hard to break out of that. I mean, it comes with a lot too. It comes with, you know, I I I believe that's where my perfectionism comes from, right? Yeah, it's like it's gotta be just so just so, and this sort of like that my you know, it's the academic drive comes from pr wanting to prove whatever, you know, the value. And and it started as, you know, making sure everything, oh my family's so happy, would never know anything, you know. Um, and on when you go home and on the inside, I can remember I was um gosh, I was either six or seven years old. And I went home, I got home off the bus one day. So I was like in kindergarten, and um, and I had a knife and I just wanted to die, you know, and I I was so overwhelmed, and just that was the inside, but you would never have known that from the outside. And I wanted to just, you know, I that young, I couldn't I even imagine my son wanting to kill himself, yeah. And that's what I was going through, you know, and um uh it's just getting breaking away from that. Of course, you know, there was all the stuff that came with it, but um, yeah, that's it's really empowering figuring out um that I don't have to be everything to everyone or take care of every person that I meet, you know. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I've seen you come a long way in that realm. Yeah, just sitting here talking to you. I feel a confidence in you, yeah. You know, that self-worth, that independence, that and and you know this, right? How how can we take care of others if we don't take care of ourselves? And you're doing that, yeah, you know, yeah, and that's a really cool thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I never knew what that meant before. It was like, yeah, I love my I like myself, whatever. Yeah, it's like actually doing the things to care for yourself, you know? Super cool. It's like putting that into action, right? Like, yeah, it's yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Cool, yeah. I want to ask two more.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Um screwed if it ends up being more than an hour. I don't give a shit. But this speaks to uh your education and your process to become a school psychologist. So, what inspired you to pursue a degree in school psychology and how has your recovery journey influenced that path?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, okay, so just the shortest and sweetest answer is um I my experience, you know, being a parent of a child with autism. Um and just struggle, it was another struggle story, right? It was going through hell and figuring out there was a solution to that. There was a way to help people. And I saw this school psychologist giving my son an evaluation, and I was like, that's what I want to do. Oh and I I always knew I wanted to help people, you know. I went into Soch and psychology for a reason. Um I didn't know what. Okay, you know, because you kind of gotta go with yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, but um so were you thinking a different path before? Were you looking at other career paths?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was probably looking at counseling. Okay. Yeah. And uh, you know, counseling, I there's a bit of counseling in school psychology, which is cool. Um but yeah, it was it was going through um just the trenches with my son in public school. And he wasn't even in public school yet. He was in kindergarten or uh pre-K pre-K.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. Yeah. So was it a certain like the suit school psychology she saw in action that this certain person and then you're like, that's what I want to do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was going through it. Um, she gave him an evaluation, and you know, he we went through um a lot of really um maltreatment at a daycare or childcare center. The teacher was you know verbally abusing him and just bad. And he would just lay on the floor and cry if he saw her. Like he couldn't, and I had to leave him because I had to go to school, you know. Wow, it was really tough. And finally I got him out of there. And but to get into this school, this other program, he if I wanted it to be free, he had to have an IEP or um some other thing. And um, I was like, Well, I don't know, what do I gotta do to do that? I didn't because he didn't have a diagnosis yet. Oh we didn't know. Oh wow, we just knew that it was really hard for him, everything was really hard. And um then I saw this school psych and she evaluated him and she said he's got a social emotional delay and a uh uh uh verbal expressive delay and let's qualify him. And we got into this program and it changed everything. And that program I got recommended to go to children's village. They're like, We think there's more going on here. I think that and that took you know two years to even get in there. Okay, but that's how we found you know everything out, and then evaluation.
SPEAKER_04:So that was huge for you as a mom. That yeah, but also shifted you.
SPEAKER_01:That's what I want. I want to help kids.
SPEAKER_03:You help kids.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I want to help kids, um, you know, and and I it's hard with the label sometimes, but at the same time, it's like that's how we get the services, and that's how at least right how our systems work right now. Um but yeah, that inspired me. I think um that was my first thing, right? Um, and then just getting into it and realizing how much um they really school psychologists really do. It's like they're this person, most people don't know what school psychology is. You they're behind the scenes on everything, and you wouldn't know, but they're doing so many things to uh create this equitable school system, right? And I'm like, I mean, I went through it in school too. You know, I dropped out, or I always say dropped out. I um didn't go to school anymore in 10th grade and they let me go to the alternative school. Um here? Yeah. But back when it was on campus at Michelson, in Michael Wait uh Bill graduated me. I never like I I went to it was three days a week for three hours, you know, and I couldn't even manage that. I didn't go. I started working at the palace, and I was like I remember you working at the bill, I'm gonna tell you right now, I appreciate all this, but the way that I'm gonna learn about life and and what I need to do in life is by living it. And he was like, Okay, just do your senior project, come once a week, maybe an hour, check in, and I'll graduate.
SPEAKER_04:What a great eight.
SPEAKER_01:I would not have my diploma if it wasn't for him.
SPEAKER_04:And I hope he hears this.
SPEAKER_01:Man, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um super cool.
SPEAKER_03:Anyway, so there's your so that story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it makes sense again, makes perfect sense.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, um, and I think recovery has influenced that, you know, because I um, you know, I just wouldn't be able to maintain any of this without it, right? It's like my foundation. It's um it's the my thing I can turn to, right? I mean, you know, the that the the three sides of recovery, right? The mental, the physical, and the spiritual. That is what allows us to do everything. Yeah, yeah. I mean, uh, it because I'm sick even without, you know, drugs or alcohol. I don't know. I can get sick in my head real quick. And um, and that recovery piece that just keeps me grounded and it keeps me um authentic and um not too in my head, you know.
SPEAKER_04:And it How many are in your cohort?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I have a lot. I have 13. And normally it's like a 10 or 8 or 9. And I we started with 14. Um friendships? You got some I I had a really there was another woman there, um, she same age. So meet us two millennials were there and we were really nice, and she's a parent. Um, and she last year lost her husband. Yeah, real suddenly. Oh my god, and she didn't make it. And so she came back, but she might still come back, but um, she was my person, but um yeah, I have they're really young, but it's opportunity to mentor. It's yeah, it's great. I I mean I really love I'm really lucky.
SPEAKER_04:Katrina and Tyler are listening, my god, dad and David and his mentor, mentor. I'm always like, I want you to mentor this person. But that's how we change lives and the world and make it a better place to live is through bringing other people up. But you're you're gonna you're I'm gonna shift to our closing question, and I just want you to hear, and I say this to you, and I want you to just hear it in your heart. You're doing it now, but you're going to change lives in a way that that's gonna like help people's trajectory that could easily go this way, and this is for kids with autism or any kind of diagnose in the school system to change their lives from going down to this. You talked about labels and and being treated like crap and being pigeon-holed, which I think is garbage. You're gonna help. And I I'm so excited for you for that. And it's not gonna be easy, you know this within a system that is in a lot of ways broken. Yeah, but I'm I'm excited. We I can't think of her name, she's our neighbor. Her mom is Ruthie Erdman, but she's a counselor at the middle school, and she she does it, she helped Anthony so much in his middle school experience. You know, we take boys alone, boys, and expect them to sit in a chair for, you know, but she helped him have a positive experience. You know, this the counselors, the school psychs, the teachers do phenomenal work, right? But you're gonna be doing that. And it's I'm super excited for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Hopefully you can find something close so you don't move away. I know. I know. We do what we do. Okay, let's bring this to a close with two closing questions. And the first one is you've taken your pain and turned it into purpose, right? What message do you hope your story sends to other women who are working toward their own healing and its success? This is your opportunity to speak to a woman out there that's listening to you, maybe thinking, oh, how no way, I can't do that. You know, send a message of hope.
SPEAKER_01:Um, yeah, I think the first thing that comes to my mind is that um, you know, when it feels like um it's all too much, or that, you know, they're the world, you're up against the world, you know, that maybe things are just you're trying really hard and then things are just piling up and piling up and piling up. Um you know, I think that the greatest message that I would say is that there is a source that you can tap into at any time. And it, you know, I don't know if it's whatever, you know, it it for me it's a you know a higher power, but for people they call it universe, they call it creator. Uh, you know, some people find um a a power greater than themselves out in nature, whatever it is, um that there is that source that's within you and it's within all of us, and um you can tap into that at any time. And sometimes sometimes trying, and when you're trying and you're trying and you're trying, the best thing you can do is stop. And um, you know, I think, you know, that's not to say just sit on your ass or whatever and don't do anything, but um trying to figure out or move the puzzle pieces and uh I've got to do this and then I've gotta do this, and then once I do that, it'll all be worked out. And you know, getting in that state of mind that is um uh dangerous ground. Um, I think that you know it's okay to make plans and make a step-by-step, but um in the bigger picture in the end, it is sometimes when you um stop trying to figure everything out. Take a pause. Take a pause and um allow yourself to be um guided, you know. Let let the miracle happen. What do they say, you know? Yes, sure, let it don't stop, you know. It's not like give up, you know, don't just say, Well, I did my best, I did my, and now I'm gonna sit over here, you know. But um, you still have to do your footwork. Um, but I think there's a critical piece to what's really hard sometimes, especially even to recognize because you feel like, well, what am I doing wrong? I I know I felt that. What am I doing wrong? That it's just not happening for me. But there's this piece of of surrender that and trust that you can just say, okay, I've done my work, and now I'm gonna let the work that needs to be done come to me, that source, whatever it is, you know. Um and I think that um I think that would be the message that I'd have to say. I like it. Don't stop before the miracle happens.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I like it. And I think you're right. I think you know, thinking on my own path and life and going through struggle, we can try to want to control what's coming or what we think's coming, and sometimes the best thing I can do is just focus on what's right in front of me. And and it's like you're saying, don't do nothing but allowing myself to be influenced and allowing the world to reach me, you know. I think uh, you know, you've been to treatment seven times, I went to treatment twice, I've been to tons of counseling, and and if I if I'm receiving what you're saying, man, if I would have just paused and allowed myself to be influenced by the world, people, places, and things much sooner, boy. Yeah, wouldn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right? Yeah, because it comes. I mean, there's there's been people in my life that just came right into my life at the right time, you know. I mean, there's things that have happened in my life. I tried so hard to find recovery, you know, and I we believed that I had it, I could do the talk, I could do the walk. I was like, yeah, yeah, I got this. I got this. Um, and you know, somewhere along the way, it it wasn't, it was me. I was doing my will or with that. And um, and I think that almost blocked me from allowing myself to be uh guided. And um, I I for it's there's there's thing about spirituality, you know, is that it can be in science, it can be in raw, it could be whatever, you know. Um the thing, you know, some people talk to the people that have passed on, you know, and that's their the best that they can do, and that's that's what works. But um it was finally when I surrendered and I was like, I'm just gonna, for example, I'm just gonna go fill out this application. That's all I can do. Yeah. Um, and then I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna take care of myself. And um that I remember I was eight, eight months pregnant, and I was like, oh my gosh, I'm sleeping on my mom's couch. I'm eight months pregnant, I have nowhere to live. What am I gonna do when I'm gonna have a baby? This is crazy. Um, and a week before Desmond was born, the housing authority called me, didn't even have a phone that was working, connected to Wi-Fi. They called and hey, if you can get down here at four, you got a place. I didn't do that. Yeah, I didn't. I turned in the application. And so if you just do the little work, it will it will happen, but you just gotta let it so surrender to that. Yeah, you don't gotta lie, cheat, and steal your way there anymore, right?
SPEAKER_04:Like super cool.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Last one. And I'm always a little like, oh god, what are they gonna ask? But may not have anything. What's something you've always wanted to ask me?
SPEAKER_01:Um, okay, so I think the thing that, you know, just in our conversation today that has come to mind is um I I really admire you and and how you talked about the generational um stuff. And um I see you as a grandfather and as a parent and as a husband um and showing up for people. You've helped me, you know. I'm you were the person that helped me realize I I wanted to stay in Ellensburg when I was trying to decide whether or not to go to Montana. And I was like, oh yeah, you know, because I was getting ready to leave because I had problems. Yeah. There was this, you know, yeah, when you have problems, that's what I do. I'm I'm a revert to leaving. But but I was like, you know, and I think I think that comes to mind in terms of the question is um what has been, you know, as a person who's um been in active addiction and been through it with their child and now in recovery, what has been, you know, your biggest lesson in making those transitions from you know, addiction to recovery and now even applying that as a grandfather in terms of your relationships with your children or um child and grandchildren. Um yeah, what's your what's your greatest lesson in maintaining that relationship in terms of um you know the first thing that comes to mind is I don't have it all figured out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I'm a little emotional because um me and Tyler, you know, our father-son relationship is good. But um we just had you know a heart-to-heart father-son talk in the living room and it was over an hour, and and um, you know, I I don't have it all figured out. And I think that for me, um, with being a grandfather to Anthony and a lark, you know, and and just because of proximity, I see Anthony more than Alaric, it's not bad or good, it just is what it is. But I've been able to have space to be able to just um listen. I think that's something I'm working on a lot is is you know, because I am a grandfather, I am a father, and I do have life, and I'm a college professor and I do all these things and I love mentoring, but um allowing Tyler to be Tyler, allowing Anthony to be Anthony and not um trying to well it's kind of what we're talking about, yeah. Trying to put all the pieces you know being present. Yeah. When you were talking about um uh the giving hope to a woman, you know, I the one of the things that I try to practice on a regular basis is just being here. It's 10 a.m. Oh, this is perfect. It's the first time I've looked at my watch. This is time. But being here at 10 a.m. on Sunday in my office with Zaire and not be it's happened a couple times, you know. I'm thinking about the week or you know, what's and I think some of that's normal, but this is what we got, and that's the one thing that I value the most about living a life in recovery from going to treatment and and AANA and the 12-step community and all of that, but that living in the now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, living in the now.
SPEAKER_04:That's all we got. Yeah, I went yesterday to Mitch Barker, he's a local, I don't know if you knew him, but he was a uh a guy that passed pretty suddenly.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Pretty suddenly, you know, and I don't know. I don't know when my time's gonna come. So in each day, if I can have a positive influence on someone's life, I'm in. If I can be the uh in fact, uh um uh Ashley Alark's mom sent some pictures up, and I and I'm not dismissive of she wrote on the back, you know, number one grandpa. You know, when I get those nuggets like that, yeah, you know, when Tyler said when we we hit that effing fucking goddamn elk, you know, and he he he kept us from and and I'm like what I just kept wow son. He's like, Well, you know, maybe my dad taught me how to drive offensively sometimes instead of I'm like, okay, I take those nuggets. Yeah, I appreciate it, it makes me feel good and it makes me want to do more. And I'll close with this is my ultimate goal in life is this to help people see that they have it within them to do amazing things. Yeah, that's it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. We can do anything.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:If we do the things you talked about today, yeah, right? Show up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Show up when it's hard and set boundaries and be the best mom and and screw it up and then go, okay, well, all right, I screwed that up. Let's figure this out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, there's a thing um about learning that we think learning or growing, it should be like this, you know, data point or whatever, this point to this point or whatever. And eat with a couple here and there's, you know, and we think, why is this happening to me again? And what it is is when we're going through the shit again, and we're going through what, you know, that is the learning that that's the growth, you know, it's this loop-de-loop and it's this craziness. And, you know, there's not really an end point to that.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_01:And trying to stay in the now, like you just said, that just that's the only way that you can be willing to learn. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:It's just perfect. Until next time, friends.