Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
Grief, Grit, And Everyday Grace (w/guest Rebekah Moon)
Grief rarely arrives with warning, and it never follows your schedule. When Rebeka lost her partner Ryan to COVID in two weeks, the world didn’t pause—her son started school days later, bills still came due, and a house full of everyday artifacts turned into a living museum of memory. What followed wasn’t a dramatic “comeback” but a series of small, honest choices: spiral-notebook task lists, a friend who ran interference when words failed, a school counselor who checked in, and a resolve to keep showing up even when the feelings didn’t have names yet.
We sit with the details most stories skip. Rebeka shares how she left his beard stubble in the sink for months, why calendars and routines became a lifeline for a neurodivergent household, and how recovery tools—daily inventories, making amends, honest self-inquiry—translate into sustainable grief practices. She talks about parenting for two without pretending to be two people, inviting safe men into her son’s world, and using technology to keep a father’s voice alive. We dig into what helps the bereaved—specific offers, presence, community—and what harms: assumptions, timelines, and tidy clichés.
The conversation also flips the script as Rebeka interviews me about becoming “Dr. D.” It’s an unlikely path fueled by mentors, persistence, and the simple discipline of not quitting for long. From early coursework to a bruising dissertation phase, the lesson mirrors Rebecca’s: you can do hard things when your people hold you steady and you allow the plan to evolve. Together we map a humane blueprint for anyone facing loss, recovery, or a life that no longer matches the plan—feel what you feel, write it down, ask for help, keep the small promises, and choose meaning over avoidance.
If this resonated, tap follow, share it with someone who needs it, and leave a review to help more people find honest conversations about grief, recovery, and raising good humans.
Here we are.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so last night I I did an office refresh. If you watch any of my videos, you'll notice my wall unit looks a little cleaner. And I think it was the summer we were going through this little barrette thing. I don't even know how it started.
SPEAKER_00:Well, people like to make fun of me because I use my brettes down to the last limb.
SPEAKER_02:And we got you this really large one a long time ago. So Merry Christmas. Yeah. That's yours. Yeah. Isn't that great?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I'll make sure to take it home with me this time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, please. All right. So let me do my little intro. Welcome everyone. Deep dive with Dr. D. Thank you for joining us. Um, I am really excited for this one, as I am for all. Um, but this one will be different for me and Rebecca because we actually have the kind of conversation we're gonna have today on the phone a lot. We have conversations about, I say life and living about parenting, about recovery, about um uh dislife, right? Yeah. Funny stuff, serious stuff. Yeah. Um, so this is kind of a first that we're sitting down like this, and you know, all of this is happening. So this is my friend Rebecca Moon. Uh, we've known each other a long time, over a decade.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, easily.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. 13, 14 years at least. 13, 14 years.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:I met you through Ryan. Yep. Um, and then uh we've been friends. Me and Ryan took a little break. We broke up for a little bit, and so we broke up for a little bit, and uh then we came back together and we've we've been friends ever since. Um, so um, you guys know me. Um for our viewers out there that will see this. Uh tell them a little bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_01:Oh boy, I didn't pair that.
SPEAKER_02:I didn't that's on purpose.
SPEAKER_01:I didn't prepare that.
SPEAKER_02:No, I know.
SPEAKER_01:Uh my name is Rebecca Moon.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Uh boy, what do you want to know about me? Uh middle-aged widowed mom with two children at home.
SPEAKER_02:Nice. I like it. Okay. Uh, what do you do for work? What do you do to pay the bills?
SPEAKER_01:Uh currently I'm a health promotion specialist at the local health department here.
SPEAKER_02:Um been there how long now?
SPEAKER_01:Four years. Four years. Four years this month. Um, yep. I've been working in public health-ish um type for eight, nine years of some kind. So community organizations, community things.
SPEAKER_02:Um and I don't think I've ever I mean it must be it's your passion. Is it your passion?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Uh I'm we'll get into that, right? That grows and changes. And um I public health is right, the health of the places you live, work, and play. Right. So that's that's where I'm um excel. That's where I excel, right? That's where I want to be. That's where I want to have an impact.
SPEAKER_02:And then your alumni of Central, both your undergraduate and graduate degree. Yes, sir. Yeah, that was a journey. Yes, sir. Yeah, that's awesome. And then we've had some conversations as of late about hmm, could it end up being Dr. Moon?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:I do like to tease sometimes uh that uh, you know, when I forget to cross a T or dot an I, like I'm a highly educated woman. You are sometimes grammar isn't the top of it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you're not the only one that struggles. Yeah, I had to finally, and it took me a while to succumb to um actually hired an editor in my dissertation because I needed help. Yeah. And I preach about that now.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Listen, there's no shame in asking for help. Like I need a second pair of eyes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then so personally, you're um you're a mother to Luke and Elliot came in, and he's your nephew.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Elliot's my nephew. Yeah, he's 17 now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And I've enjoyed um getting to know him.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. He it it's funny, we went to Leavenworth yesterday and um a few things came up. Number one, Elliot um will be with us a year on December 6th, so next Saturday. Um, and boy, quite the year we've had, yeah, you know, for all of us adjusting and um having a teenager in your home. As you know, Luke is a preteen, so you know, we've had some of the things, but we're not doing all the teen things. So to have a teen in the house immediately is an adjustment.
SPEAKER_02:Um full-time mom now to two teens. Luke's 13, right?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, 12 and a half.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my gosh. Might as well be 13.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And work full-time and live a pretty full life, right? Oh yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, okay. Well, there's Rebecca and we oh good. So we have lots of viewers out there. Yeah. Uh I thought this would be a good one. Yeah, you're fine. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:My neon yellow jacket behind me.
SPEAKER_02:Looks great. Let's dive into a question.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, let's do it.
SPEAKER_02:Does that sound good?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I have some notes in my digital journal app because I've contemplated this all week.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, let's get it. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02:When looking back, and and I want to preface this for those that watch and listen who don't know. Um we lost Ryan in 2021. Yeah. And you and Ryan had been together for how long to that point?
SPEAKER_01:Uh just shy of nine years. That was like our official anniversary.
SPEAKER_02:And you had a child together, Luke. Right. Um and um and you lost Ryan to COVID.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Okay. And it was pretty sudden. Very sudden. It was very sudden.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I remember where I was when Tyler called me.
SPEAKER_01:Tested positive on a Monday, and two Mondays later he was gone.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. So that's been four four and a half years. Yeah. Four and a half years. So there's a little background. Yeah. So when you look back on losing Ryan, what helped you keep moving forward in those early days when everything felt overwhelming and impossible?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Boy, um unimaginable. Right? Like, I think that's the word of it. Um I think there was a bit of um uh disassociation in and out, right? Um I would often think when people would say, like, gosh, I can't imagine, and I'm like, me too. Like, I can't, I can't imagine this, you know. Um, wouldn't wish it on anybody. Um but there was uh there was lots of things to do um as far as um his care, um um with the funeral home, with the hospital, you know, uh all of those um details that you don't often think about. And because Ryan was um a 38-year-old man, right? Um we didn't expect to pass away at 38. Um but there was a lot of um details that weren't decided, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Um because you wouldn't have those conversations necessarily at 38 years old.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. And and when you do, looking back now, um, you know, boy, death really has a way of making you face your own mortality, right? And people want to pretend like those things don't happen. And I think in the early days that was it was in and out of that, right? Like pretending this isn't my life and then actually participating in my life. Um so that was weird. Um, you know, and because it happened so fast, there were so many pieces um within that time frame, um, you know, from the the time, you know, his last phone call that I had with him, um, you know, transporting him to Seattle um at 2 a.m. in the morning and hearing all of you know the concerns and logistics of that, and then seeing him for the last time, and then like now we're here, right? And it was so it was such a whirlwind that like I I couldn't even make sense of it, you know. Um anyhow, um I had a friend who came and stayed with me for a few weeks, um, and uh God bless her, because you know, like she really ran interference.
SPEAKER_02:I do this with names. It was Stacy Stacy Stacey.
SPEAKER_01:Um she really was helpful in, you know, running interference with other people because um uh uh politely, right?
SPEAKER_02:Everybody Oh, I I I know what you're going to people say stupid shit. Well and I and I don't I don't mean say that but people say things and I talk about this in a lighter way when people when someone breaks up we say things like oh you'll find someone else but even with death right I'm actually looking forward to having Henry on. He's gonna be on. Yeah, I'm very you know he I'm sure does that run in interference. So thank God you had someone. And it's not people don't mean well, people just are uncomfortable with the situation, they don't know what to say, right? And so they say things and want to do things.
SPEAKER_01:You don't know what to say.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, you said it well because as you were saying, you know, you went like I couldn't imagine this. Like I think I couldn't imagine losing Katrina, right? Tyler. Right. I don't think anyone can, and you're the one walking through it. Right, right? Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:So you had Stacy come.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Stacy came. Uh she helped me stay on top of the to-do lists. You know, we literally got a spiral notebook out of the wow office supplies, you know, the school supplies that we had. Uh, and you know, every single day we were making a list, like even to the so Luke started school.
SPEAKER_03:Ryan passed away.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Ryan passed away on September 6th. I think school started on September 8th. Yeah. You know, it was like one or two days right afterwards. Um, and um there was just a lot to do. There was a lot to do um in trying to have some sort of normalcy, you know, for Luke. And um because I knew being at home, you know, like there I anyways, it it was a lot and it took a lot of courage for him to go to school. Um, you know, and thank God for um the counselor at his elementary school, Miss Benfield. You know, we had a relationship with her. Um and you know, the administration at the time um was just wonderful, you know, checking on him. Um really, really wonderful, really well supported there.
SPEAKER_02:Um so you you had individual and individuals, I'm sure, that supported you family and community.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And that I I say it's got you out of bed.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yes. Uh and Luke.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, um, I you know, I said the disassociation piece, right? But um and I and I talk about it um a little bit later, but um it's it's the moments that you don't, right? It's holding yourself accountable in those moments like just get up, you know, just do the things um and give yourself permission to not sometimes, you know. Um and that was hard. It was hard.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I'm just gonna say that dumb I would unimag I couldn't imagine.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:Because I couldn't.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right, right. Um in uh Ryan was working for Bell Sauce at the time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um I still see his truck.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Yep.
SPEAKER_02:I know I met the I know I told you, I met the kid who has it.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know if he's working there anymore.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:Because I I seen it parked over uh at Merritt for a little while. Oh, um, and I haven't seen that kid driving it. I feel like I saw an older gentleman driving it.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe moved on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, they were gracious, super wonderful to us. Um, you know, like even left the car parked at my house. I remember you said that you know, for weeks. Uh yeah, they were all just really wonderful.
SPEAKER_02:What are those material things that you see that still remind you of him?
SPEAKER_01:Ugh, geez. You know, it's it's funny. I that was one of the things that um, you know, came across, you know, with just being distracted and busy and and doing all the things, but it was um like I didn't change anything in the house for a long time. You know, all of his stuff was right where he left. Oh boy, it depends on what you asked.
SPEAKER_03:That's okay.
SPEAKER_01:I literally didn't clean my bathroom for probably 10 months because I didn't want his beard hair to be gone. You know? Um the toilet, yes, but like the sink and stuff, like that was a don't touch, you know. Um, and uh I joke, right? Because I don't I don't know what you and Katrina, but like it was like, get the clothes in the hamper, you know what I mean? But like it was those moments where like I think I left dirty socks and underwear on the floor at the end of my bed for months, you know, and pulled dirty clothes out of the hamper to sleep with at night, you know, just to smell them for as long as I could, you know, as long as the smell was there, um just to have a touchstone, you know, it and um that idea of our house being a reminder, right, came up in a couple of relationships. And um, it was hard for me. Um, and I had a big conflict with one individual um who had expressed to me that it was hard coming to my house. Um, but it in my mind, in it it triggered something because it was like, do you not realize I live here?
SPEAKER_02:Like I come here every day. I couldn't imagine. Right. I live here, right? Right imagine living here.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. Right. And and if anybody knew Ryan, you know Ryan was a big man, uh figuratively and physically, you know. Um, so he took a lot of space in the house, you know, um, and and it was noticeable. It was very noticeable. It's noticeable now, you know, um four-year anniversary this year, but it's our fifth holiday season, right? Like in fifth season going into things, right? So um the holidays, um, our anniversary, um, you know, my clean dates, his clean date, you know, the annual uh moments in time. Yeah, motorcycle ride we take, you know, it's fifth of all of those things. And um uh how did we get here? You know, is the thought like, how did we get here? Like I can hear him walking in the house, you know, preparing Thanksgiving um this year at home reminded me so much of the moments that we had during COVID, right? Where everybody was home, you know, and in a weird way, I'm gosh, COVID's such a weird topic now, you know. But I'm so grateful for those moments, you know, that we were able to um have together, you know, and make meaning of family and connection with to each other and the relationships we built deeper in that time, you know.
SPEAKER_02:All right, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Uh I Okay, wait, I I just want to say please the journaling.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What helped you reading books? Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um, I read books like uh An Unattended Sorrow. Oh, uh Who Will Cry When You Die, It's Okay If You're Not Okay. And my favorite that somebody had sent me, I think Julia sent it to me, was the Hot Young Widows Club.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:Uh and uh funny story about that. When I went to get my uh when I did a panel interview for my job, yeah. Uh, and I'm sitting in there and and this uh Joe, gosh, God bless Joe. I just loved him.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, you know, uh, you get to go around and everybody gets to pick a cushion. And I had said I like to read as a hobby, and he's like, Well, what book are you reading? And I had this whole moment, like my whole body was like, Are you gonna tell the truth right now? Holy Are you gonna tell the truth? And I said, I'm gonna tell the truth. And I said, The Hot Young Widows Club. And everybody in that room knew my story, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Except Pim? Or did he unclear? Actually, now that you say that, yeah, Uncle Maybe he didn't.
SPEAKER_01:Maybe he didn't specifically. Um, anyhow, that was funny. Um, I was in this starting the second year of my master's program. Yeah. So that was things to do. Um and then work. I went to work not even two months after I passed away, full time. Um, and then the widows groups on Facebook uh helped realizing that even in the middle age, right, there's so much of life left, but it is not much different than those at retirement age who lose a spouse, right? You have your whole life shifting again. So, and then I've seen, you know, relationships in their early 20s, right? Early marriage, like all of those things. So, like it's really um not that different, right? At any time it sucks.
SPEAKER_02:So you you know, if I'm if I'm hearing you correctly, what kind of kept you moving is those tasks that you and and and uh God Stacy did that she helped you with to you know do the next indicated thing.
SPEAKER_01:Right and Henry, God bless Henry, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:We all know that, and I'm looking forward to him coming on. But yeah, the that community piece too, right? Um, reading, support groups, all of those things.
SPEAKER_01:Connection to self and connection to outside yourself, yeah. Yeah, good for sure.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, let's see what we have here. I've been in my Santa role here, so I'm almost like I'm looking at let's just glasses down a little on your nose then. All right. You've had to navigate grief, single motherhood, work, and recovery all at once. What have you learned about your own strength through that journey?
SPEAKER_01:Oh uh calendars and good intentions. Uh boy, uh, you know, I'm having this conversation with Elliot quite a bit. Um I have some neurodivergencies. Uh everybody in my house does, right? And you know how busy I am. Like things, we do things. Uh, and we do things because oftentimes they're already on the calendar. Um I think about during COVID. Um, I think that's where I've drawn a lot of my strength because I had a first grader, second grader at home, right? Um, I also was in full-time school. And for a good chunk of that, I also was a grad student. So I was also working, you know, all at home. Um I was working out, moving my body every day, serving three meals a day. And if anybody knows me, like the adult chore that I hate the most is food. The grocery shopping, the meal planning, the doing the things, like uh it's my least enjoyable. Okay. Um but all of those things were done because there was a time for every single one of them.
SPEAKER_02:Where does that where did you get that from?
SPEAKER_01:Which part? The food?
SPEAKER_02:The whole the doing the mom thing, the taking care of yourself, the walking. Where does it come from? Where's that rooted from?
SPEAKER_00:Oh boy. Uh that's not on the questions, David.
SPEAKER_01:Um you know, I I I reflect on this a little bit later, but um I often have a sense of desperation. Um, you know, and I'm learning this year that it's not um hold on, describe it.
SPEAKER_02:What's the because I almost feel a commonality a little bit. What's the desperation? Okay. Um I don't think it's desperation, like, oh God, maybe it is. I don't know, but what is it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, un unclear, right? I I think at one point in my notes um when I was thinking about it, I said uh maybe it's anxiety.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Really, right?
SPEAKER_02:But um Do you get comfort in getting things done? Like doing the things you don't want to do, the shopping and the cooking, like when the kids are eating or you know they're full, or you know that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sometimes, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:So is there some of that?
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes, yeah. I think that's definitely the motivator. I think Luke oftentimes is definitely a good motivator. If it were me, I could eat smoothies, breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Like, because it's like, you know.
SPEAKER_02:You you you um when I I'm an observer of parents, right? Like I'm it's a huge thing for me, and you are like up there as far as a mom. Thank you. Like really high. Where did that come from?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, a variety of places. Um my own mom, right? And and we talk about our moms often. Uh, you know, one of Ryan's favorite favoritist things about me was um celebrating all the seemingly small things, right? That really aren't so small. Uh, and I definitely got that from my mom, you know. Um step work therapy, parenting classes, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Um so learning's important to you. I think you talk about that. Like you read and you you gather new knowledge and you adapt and you grow.
SPEAKER_01:The more I learn, the less I know, David.
SPEAKER_02:Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_01:That piece?
SPEAKER_02:Where's the why? Why do you do that? Because not everyone does.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So that's the part of the where the desperation comes in for me, and and I may still making sense of it, to be honest. I'm still making some sense of it. Because I have always, and I've I talk frequently with my sponsor about this, and now my current therapist. Um, like there's a shift in your thinking when you say I have to change or I get to change, right? And I hate that corny, like I get to do the things, but really powerful, like um, like especially since Ryan died, right? Like, I could have had a thousand other choices, right? Like I didn't have to go to work, I didn't have to, you know, like finish my master's degree, like I didn't have to And no one would have blamed you, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. It'd have been like, oh well, of course, right, yeah, right. But you chose to continue.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So there's a sense of empowerment stepping into that, right? Like I I chose to do that instead of that, right? And the the saying And this wasn't planned.
SPEAKER_02:So where does where does that come from inside of you? What part wasn't the choosing to move forward rather than just be a widow.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And I don't mean that in a negative way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, I definitely don't wear as as an identity, and some people from the outside who aren't maybe as intimately close to me have said that, right? Like wearing it as a but um interesting. It's an interesting thing, you know. Um I think at some points in my life it's because uh perhaps I'm running away from something. Um, you know, in our teenage years, we're you know, running away from our families and doing the things right, but then active addiction and you know, all of those things, and then getting clean, right? And the hunger to want something different, right? And um uh it has been that feeling in some aspects, and some aspects it's because I want to change and be different. You know, I've recently had a conversation with um um a close friend of ours, and you know, sometimes when I show up in the relationships I love the most um in a way that doesn't align with my morals and values, like I feel like crap about it. I don't want to show up like that anymore. I don't want to say those things to the people I think is important to you. Oh yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Integrity, authenticity, even if it's not pretty.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it often is not pretty, friend.
SPEAKER_02:Welcome to our brains.
SPEAKER_01:Right, yeah, yeah, it's a mess in there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, do you wanna you wanna get your notes on any before we go to the next question? Um prepared for this.
SPEAKER_01:I think we touched on um most of it, you know, just the like being willing to to do the emotional and intimate work inside, right? Like, why do I show up um in in in that way? And and the huge conversation I'm having with the kids too, right? Like, so this is the connection, right? Like I do the thing so I can show up in a certain way for my kids, right?
SPEAKER_02:And teach them and the because the hope is what? If you show up in this way for the kids, what's the hope?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, I would like to say that they show up like good humans, but so they feel good about themselves, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, um, I want the world to hear this. Um, and this is my big mantra on parenting. Um, I love hanging out with Luke and Elliot. We went in a car for two hours and one day two hours back, and we spent time together at the car show, and I enjoyed all of it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's because of the parenting that you're doing. Certainly, Elliot had some other parent, but and other influence.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:But it's not that way with all kids.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so your work matters.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's it's beautiful it's a beautiful thing. Like, I love hanging out with Luke. I asked, I told Luke to come up here. You were you were here. I'm like, come up and get something. He came down with nothing. I'm like, what's wrong with you, kid? But you know, he's he's a cool kid. Um and and Elliot, you know, is is coming to my office on campus, and we have this thing now. He's leaving me notes. Not all kids do that. Right. And that's creating that social emotional skill set that is immensely powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I mean, you are a safe person to like for me to convey to Elliot, right? Like that is your touchstone, right? Like that is the person that you check in with, right? Because you go out in the world. We all go out in the world, right? And we have to put these masks on in order to participate in certain situations, right? But we need places to come back and know that we're real, you know? Um interesting. Uh the thing that I'm trying to convey the most, right, is we get to these places of crises, like that's the term we're using with the kids, right? It's a little more therapeutic. Um, where we step outside of our own morals and values, right? We show up in a way we don't want to, right? So what coping skills, like thinking about the iceberg, right? It's up here, but you step down a little bit, and what are the coping skills that are gonna help me not get to this point, right? But if I don't know how to identify the feelings that got me, yeah. You know, like so we're stepping- That's at the core. Right, right. So that's that's where I always try to um work myself backwards in that way for myself, yeah, right, for the kids and and say the things out loud. Luke is um now um at an age where it's a little bit easier to have like some direct conversation with them. And I from the listen, kids know way more than you give them credit for. They're listening. They're listening.
SPEAKER_02:They're not right, they're watching it. And if you're they're soaking it all in.
SPEAKER_01:You and I have this conversation often that if if you're not having the conversations with your kids, somebody is, right? Yeah, or their peers are telling them what to think, right? Like they're making sense of a world that that oftentimes we as adults don't know how to make sense of.
SPEAKER_02:And our behavior, right? And I think the behavior of the adults.
SPEAKER_01:Boy, I get to say a lot of times with my kids, like, here's here's my opinion, this is what I think, this is what I know, um, but there's a lot that I don't know about this, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Um there's a vulnerability in that, isn't there?
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:That teaches them that it's okay.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02:All right, let's move to the next question.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, we'll do it.
SPEAKER_02:How have your experiences with loss and recovery shaped the way you show up as a mom to Luke? And we can add Elliot now, and that's if you want to, but also as a public health professional serving our community.
SPEAKER_01:Uh, this question and the next question were so um they're so integrated together that I, you know, tried my best to think about them separately. Um, but really they've changed entirely and and yet not at all. Um it feels deeper than you know what I already had previously known, um somewhat more urgent in in some aspects. Um And um I think the recovery piece and the God piece for me has, you know, shifted and grown. And um I've been in recovery for a little while now. And and so there's been this For our viewers, how long? I will have 15 years January 2nd.
SPEAKER_02:Oh man.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Wow. Okay, cool. Not weird.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um long time. Anyhow, so there's been a lot of rinse and repeat, right? And and come back and and um edit my life, if you will, you know, like we're taking that sentence out, we're gonna add this sentence here, we're taking this, you know, whatever. Um and and so it's just another aspect of that, really. Um, you know, um, Ryan and I were always very intentional about the way we were raising Luke. Um, you know, right from the get-go, um, he and I had conversations like that. I I will we sat at this um um there was this recovery event, and I was like at a tabling thing. I don't even remember what I was getting giving away. Um, but there had been um a break, and I was, you know, sitting there by myself, people were off doing their thing, and and Ryan had come and sat with me, and we sat there and played 20 questions. Like we'd met multiple times and hung up.
SPEAKER_02:This is pre-luke.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah, pre-luke. Oh wow, yeah. Did you dating? No. Oh no, oh no, okay, okay. Okay, so funny. And we sat there and we played 20 questions and like lit like serious 20 questions, you know, like what do you want to do with your life? How do you want to how many kids do you want? Where do you want to live? Yeah, what kind of community do you want to be in?
SPEAKER_02:Or did you?
SPEAKER_01:Uh, you know, unclear. There was lots of excitement going on.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, yeah. Um I could see him. I could see this.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, Ryan. You know, and he wasn't afraid to ask the questions and do the things. And um it it was always like that for us, you know, like he and I both knew the things um about our past that we didn't didn't like. Um and through the course of our relationship, right? Like it wasn't going in the complete opposite direction that was the right way, right? It was sifting through the things and growing and changing in that way. And so I've I've definitely always tried to keep that in my mind. And also, you know, Ryan died two weeks after Luke turned eight. You know, there's um so much of Ryan that Luke doesn't remember in the forefront of his mind, you know. Like as an adult, you think about how many memories do you have before you were eight. Yeah, you know, um, and thank God for technology because I have, you know, endless videos and pictures and you know, and interesting, yeah. And um it's it's um it's uh led to some very interesting conversations and show like shaping Luke's own self-esteem and you know, those things. And for me, I not that I'm the mom and the dad idea, right? But like I I parent for both of us, right? Like um, like that's my amends to Ryan, you know? Like um Luke was his biggest pride and joy, you know? Um and it's it feels like a big uh it feels heavy sometimes, you know. I feel a huge responsibility to it and I would do it a hundred times over every time. All of it. You know?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Anywho.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, that's okay. I, you know, um that's Johnny's flag. You know, the step he was a stepdad, but he was the one dad that gave the shit, and and he died of cancer at a young age. And you know, that's my common thread with Luke, is you know, I didn't lose my biological father. I couldn't but yeah, he was eight. And and it did just make me think how great is it that we have technology and we have the ability to bring those memories back for him. I think that'll be yeah, really cool for him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And you you um he's shining down on you. He's he's shining down on you. Because because you haven't Rebecca, you've been intentional. Use these words, you know. You've been intentional about about bringing people in.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You know, whether it's me or Andy or or James or other men that you you kind of handpick if I use that word that that you say that you can trust to be around your son and you know, not replace.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:You know, me and me and Luke have had very small conversations about grief and loss, and and he just knows that I'm here. But my only goal is, you know, I've shared with him, um, and and I just I'm just with him when I'm with him. Yeah. Um, and but you've you've created that for him.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and you you are, yeah, you're kind of the dad and the mom in a lot of ways, but your mom.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's definitely where I know there's things I can't talk about, you know. I don't have the right equipment. That's sure when we listen, yeah. Luke wasn't talking about puberty at eight o'clock, you know, at eight years old. So we've had some of those conversations where, you know, like, but I've said, right? Like, we have trusted men in our lives, you know, that like these are the people that you ask about those things, these are the safe people to do those things, you know. Um he Luke is my biggest amends to to Ryan, to myself, to society, which you know, prior to 15 years ago, you know, I created some wreckage. So I mean that ties into the personal aspect of it too, right? Where the public health, uh, live, work, and play health, you know, is so important to me. Like it's it's not just a passion per se, but like it's it's integrated into it's you, me, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I I love saying this and seeing it and feeling it and and being part of it, you're breaking generational cycles.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, absolutely. Well, yes. Oh boy, yes. And um, you know, I endlessly proud of my own mom, right? Like the conversations that she and I have had since me being in recovery, you know, um, the shifts and the growth um that she has had because of the work that she's been willing to put in herself, right? Um it it's it's a it's endlessly amazing, like, you know, and she and I recently had a really good conversation about uh I'm adopted um and um I do know uh my biological parents and for me like there's so many different you know moving parts and pieces of that and to have um mom um that I have like support me through all of those different aspects and what that looks like and the weird feelings that come up from those things because I don't I've never met a person who was adopted that didn't have some sort of cellular feeling about that, you know, and and so to have a relationship that's supportive and loving and caring in that way is um huge, and that takes a strong person, yeah. You know, yeah, that takes a strong person, yeah. That's good, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Your final question, your final, I guess I would say hard question. The last two are are a little lighter. Um, but this one's actually a good one. I like this one. Friendship and community have been a big part of your healing, monumental, I would say, right? What role has connection played in helping you rebuild or even say just continue your life in a way that feels meaningful?
SPEAKER_01:Uh everything and nothing at all. Like really. Um, I think everything that I s said for the last question, um, but it's it's everything. Connection is everything. Um, you know, um it's challenging uh since Ryan passed, and I kind of touched on this in the beginning, right? It it being uh middle-aged uh and having so many plans ahead of us, you know. Um uh since that 20 question session, it was not one kid. One kid was not the answer. Uh I'm from a large family, I wanted lots of children.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I didn't oh wow.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I wanted lots of children. Um, and I talked Ryan into three. That was our number.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I didn't know that. Uh um Do you think that could ever happen for you again?
SPEAKER_01:Boy, unclear, friend.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, unclear. Um does dating ever come up for you?
SPEAKER_01:Of course it does. Yeah, lots of people have opinions on what I should be doing with my romantic life.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I say let's go.
SPEAKER_01:So does everybody else, right? There's intention behind that as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um go on.
SPEAKER_02:So the changing of life plans.
SPEAKER_01:Right. So the changing of life plans, right, and accepting that, and and that goes into the strength, right? Like I don't get to lay down and die with the person at die, right? Like, I'm alive, right? And so learning to um celebrate the moments that need to be celebrated, looking for the glimmers. I love that you share the little like, you know, the funny plants or the things, right? Because that's how my brain works, right? I'm looking for those little moments throughout my day that I celebrate. And, you know, I learn to do uh in 12-step, we have a uh 10-step uh inventory, right? And do like that, yeah, daily 10-step inventory. And at that means that at the end of the day, I get to look at my whole day, right? The good, the bad, the indifferent. I get to look at the places where maybe I stepped out of my morals and values, you know, and now I owe an amends to that person or to myself, or you know, um it's not perfect, right? But even looking at a doctorate now moving forward, right? Like uh that's that wasn't the intention, and and yet I feel an immense amount of excitement around it. And and there's gonna be um lots of moving pieces and parts and sacrifices, and and I um there are certain things I'm not willing to sacrifice that other people do, but it's because of the intention and the things that I've learned about connection to my kid, to my community, um, that that I won't sacrifice, you know, those things. Um but it's um it's learning to feel more than two things at one time, you know, more than two or three things at one time. That's no that's okay. Right. There's a lot of good and being okay with it, right? Like it's the it's the Thanksgiving where, you know, like the grief is so heavy and you know, like it's dragging, like what do they say, the the concrete shoes, you know, and and preparing food for this many people and feeling enjoyment, feeling love, you know, like watching people eat and enjoy it and and it's still having some grief. Oh god, absolutely having the grief. You know, it's the after everybody goes and I'm left alone and the kids, you know, want to hang out and do their own thing, and then you know, I take a walk through the neighborhood and I, you know, give myself a moment to feel like, oh my god, is it always gonna feel like this? You know, like five years later, and I I have been reflecting recently on the the this fifth year journey through this that um uh if somebody had told me in those early days that at five years, you know, that it was gonna feel like that, um boy, right? I don't know if I would have made it, friend.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I just you know, I just we just becomes easier to carry it. It does. We just in a different way. Christmas, yeah. And I pulled out this thing that my mom had made, you might have seen, you know. I loved it, and it gives me sadness, but also happiness in and you can have both feelings at the same time. Two things I think you've said that a few times through this talk that it's okay to feel, yeah. It's okay to have multiple feelings, it's okay to not be okay, yes, right? Which is powerful.
SPEAKER_01:And um doesn't have to be perfect all the time. That's yeah, it doesn't have to be perfect. No, it's not going to be perfect all the time.
SPEAKER_02:It's not Instagram perfect, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I often say that's funny you bring that up because I that's the people who don't necessarily know me like directly or intimately, right? Like it's easy to watch on Facebook. And I one of those books um early on described this idea of um generational grief processing, right? And how you know um this is where the modeling for the kids comes in, right? Like she talks about how think about how your mom processed grief, like you know, and then her mom, right? Like it was often this, you know, you show up at this place, yep, um, and you maybe cry a little bit and then you come back. Right. Yeah, right, right, you don't talk about it. Right. And and that's not real. That's not real. Yeah, you know, um, there was a lot of suppression or you know, denial or whatever you want. And and so what I've been really intentional about is like sharing my journey as as authentically as I can with the world, with those around me in recovery, um, with other people at work, right? Like it comes up everywhere you go, right? Everybody's touched by grief, you know. But above all, with my children with Luke.
SPEAKER_02:Like, have you ever thought of uh writing?
SPEAKER_01:I do, yeah. You you kind of spark some of that, and I'm really glad that you had brought up the uh digital journaling because uh I have handwritten journals as you saw. Um, but the digital journal thing has been really helpful to kind of just um you know, continue uh talk to text, get it out a little bit faster, or be more consistent and not. Oh, jeez.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Final two questions. These the and this is your opportunity. You can look right in the camera to give uh let's say another woman, maybe who is walking through the heavy, heavy grief of having just lost a spouse. Maybe a young lady who's walking her journey in recovery or a single mom, but this is your opportunity to give some hope. So, what's a message of hope you would give someone who's listening, who is facing loss, or just a season of life that they never expected? That I could never imagine moment. They're in it. What's your message of hope?
SPEAKER_01:I had to laugh at this one. I really hate this question now. It's it's uh it's a love-hate thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Um I'm exploring more why that is uh because I I think there's um I oftentimes struggle with the underinflated ego, not the over. So it's the less then, uh, you know, I'm nobody, uh, I'm not a hero. There's no stoicism, you know, like I'm nobody special, right? Um, I'm just like everybody else. Um what would you say?
SPEAKER_02:What would you say to a single mom who just lost her husband right now, suddenly?
SPEAKER_01:I would say take take the time, right? Do the things that matter to you right now. Do the things that you think would matter to them, right? Live the best qualities of them, the things that you loved about them. Um it it there's so many um layers to grief that to keep to continue to live, um it it's a challenge, right? Showing up anyways, even when you don't want to. Especially when you don't want to, right? Um I I often talk to Elliot about that, right? Elliot has gone through this huge life change um and he's come leaps and bounds, and you know, there are days when he doesn't want to show up. Um, and we get to say, like, do it anyways, you know, and and he does sometimes and he doesn't. And the weird thing about grief or you know, um um uh beginning of recovery is um that the world keeps turning.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it does.
SPEAKER_01:Even though your life is falling apart or building together, right? I'm it it's it feels um you have to make it here, right? Where's the heart of it? What matters in those moments? Like what are you how do you sit with yourself? You know?
SPEAKER_02:So let me say this. Say just as structurally as you can. What were those key things? And we said this earlier, but maybe just say it again to give some hope to someone out here who's walking through this. What are those key things that you did that you found helpful?
SPEAKER_01:Uh be scared, anxious, depressed, grieving, do it anyway.
SPEAKER_02:So feel. Yeah. And then what were some other things that you did? Like whether it's bring people in or journal or whatever it was, what did you do?
SPEAKER_01:I think it was all the things. Um, one of the things that um I carry in in 12 step, right? They talk about the sides to this pyramid and life is life in general, right? You could say grief, but it's life in general, it's love, it's multifaceted. Think about the different facets of your marriage, you know, or relationships at all. Like there's so many different layers, and you have to have both sides to be true, you know. And I I think the thing that comes back around for me, and and this is why I struggle with this question, David, is because it's so different for every person, right? And this has been such a spiritual um grief doesn't fit in a box, does it? It doesn't, it doesn't. It's it for me, it's been this huge spiritual picture to get to a place to really believe if there is a time for birth and growth, there has to be a time for death.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I can't have this and all of this joyous, gracious, green, lush, fun stuff without a time for death. I have to honor both sides of it, you know.
SPEAKER_02:All right, before we go to the question you're gonna ask me. Okay, and I'm glad I thought of this because I thought of it earlier. What are the things you are going to suggest for people not to do? What are things that are not helpful when someone loses someone suddenly? What are those things that made you go internally, oh my god, why did you say that? Or please, you know, what would you suggest people not do?
SPEAKER_01:Make assumptions. Yeah. Don't make assumptions.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I will say that the biggest growth I've had in relationships um is or the deeper intimacy um I've had in certain relationships is because people have not made assumptions because they have come to me and have said XYZ, right? My favorite example is my our friend Katie. And um her um husband is a truck driver now. Um, and she has come to me directly multiple times and said, you know, like I feel like ashamed or scared or whatever it is to say, like, I miss my husband or I'm really sad about my husband being gone because he's gonna come back. Oh, right. You know, and um in and it's it's afforded me an opportunity to say, like, that's true for you, friend. And I want to be a friend to you and support you in those moments and love you where you're at because it's been both ways, right? Like I had times in my relationship where you know, Ryan was construction, you know, like we spent whole summers apart, or when I moved back to Ellensburg, I moved with Luke without Ryan. Like Ryan didn't move here with us immediately, you know. Um, and there may be a time in my future that that happens again. And morbidly, there may be a time in the future where she's in my position, you know, or any one of my other relationships. The, the um, the folks who've come in and have, you know, made the assumptions about where I should be in my romantic relationship or where I should be in my career, or you know, any one of those other things, um, or who have made assumptions that you have to tiptoe around my feelings or my kids' feelings or whatever it is, and haven't come and said the things out loud, like that's where there's not space for intimacy.
SPEAKER_02:So authenticity. Absolutely. With kindness, if I were to, you know, with kind of maybe think before I'm not gonna say that because that doesn't happen.
SPEAKER_01:What's I mean you what's the saying that's uh honesty without compassion still brutality? Yeah, something or something to that effect, right?
SPEAKER_02:Like Yeah, people say, Well, I'm just that's just who I am, I'm brutally honest. I mean, um are you? Are you just mean?
SPEAKER_01:Mm-hmm.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You're a jerk. Yeah. Yeah, you're a jerk.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Well, with that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. We'll see. I feel good about my question, I think.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Oh boy. This is where I get a little nervous every time. So you were nervous in the beginning.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:What is a question you've always wanted to ask me?
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:Oh.
SPEAKER_01:I've heard a lot about your story and read your book, but what I haven't heard you talk much about is how you got to a place of wanting a doctorate degree. People like you and me don't set out to do things like that.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When did you realize that that's when you like that's what you were going to do? What helped get you through? Like what helped get you started, get you through to the end?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:What kind of self-care did you do along the way? What kind of like supports you like to talk about uh resources, yeah, um, routines, whatever. Uh, and and then did that change throughout, right? Um okay, yep.
SPEAKER_02:No, good question. So uh it wasn't part of my plan. I always say when I came back to Central in 2009, it was just to get a piece of paper, a bachelor's degree. It was actually advising that got me into a master's program. And then I fell in love with teaching, and I didn't know a lot about academia, you know, and how all these structures work in higher education, academia, and all of that. Um, I don't even think I really had any idea about how to earn, I'm sure I didn't, uh you know, become doctor such and such. But it was when I started teaching in IT management that I had colleagues, Bob Lupton, Bob Trumpy, Lori Bronstein, they started saying this thing of David, you should terminate your degree. And I'm like, what? Am I getting fired? What's terminate? What's mean? Yeah, that's what I was like. You go all the way and you become doctor such and such. And so it was like, uh, you know, uh, you know, because I was like, and then it was actually my neighbor Chris, who used uh he moved to San Diego, but he and I, he was a teacher, a high school teacher, and him and I used to ride motorcycles together, and somehow we started the conversation about going back to school because he had a master's degree, and um he was also thinking about he was thinking about okay, all right. So then it was how do you know I was I gonna travel somewhere? So I decided to do it completely online. Sure. So I don't know if you know this. I actually started him and I started together the first quarter. I quit. I'm like, uh no, yeah, I don't want any school. And so then it was almost a year, I think it was a year later, I started again because that's how my once I start something, yeah, I'm like, and Katrina, of course, huge supporter, and anyone in my world, and then on oh, and and to get to a 10-year track position, sure, you have to have a doctor, you have to have terminated your degree, and so there was that, and um so there's kind of my why. Yeah, and of course, you know, wow, could I become Dr. D? Crazy. Did I believe it could happen? No, yeah, I'll be honest. Every step of the way, it's like, oh, am I smart enough, capable enough, you know, blah blah. But I still do it anyway. So then I started again. And the journey, you know, the first three years, I think it was, is classes wasn't real difficult. It's you know, it's like you're still in school, you're doing it, and I was working full time. Yeah, there was some of that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And then for me, um, that that part wasn't real difficult. It was actually fairly easy in that I just had to stay to it. Dissertation phase, different story. That was really painful, and it was painful. You hear that, like, but for me, one doing it completely online, I didn't have connection. Yeah, and I really value connection. Yeah. Um, and my chair of my committee, she was fair. Um, communication was not good. I value good communication, but anyway, so I started going once I was done, I was in, I was doing this no matter what. And so that um started going through that process. And um, I say this to scholars now in this program who are gonna, you know, your topic and your that's all gonna evolve and change, but I struggled with that. Yeah, because I struggle with change because I have this idea.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and as we're talking about grief and loss, um, I was I think I was in, there were five phases for me for my dissertation, and I think I was in phase two or phase three, and mom went into hospice care. Um, and that that was uh I took a quarter off when mom passed. But then I remember that that's what motivated me when mom passed, and I'm like, oh, I gotta do this for mom. That kind of gave me that final push. Um, so supports were my people, yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, I think of Katrina, of course, I think of my son, I think of Jay, I think of Andreas Bowman on campus, uh, Bob Trumpy on, you know, just these people. You know, you and me are that same, and that my my people are my thread that keep me. Because I quit multiple times, yeah, you know, but I quit temporarily. Right. Um, and then I'll never forget the day. It was COVID. It was uh uh the month the world shut down that I got the 2020. Yep, yeah. I got the email. I'm done.
SPEAKER_01:Oh gosh, I'm done.
SPEAKER_02:I cried. We were at the Fifth Avenue house, and I got I got the text from my chair. Yeah, who says, You you have you have passed, and I got chills and I just wept. You know, for a kid, you know, so there you go.
SPEAKER_03:Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:It was a journey, yeah. One that I lovingly and jokingly and kind of seriously say I don't recommend. Right. Buckle up.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um, but also in that um I use this now that I can get through hard things.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Well, and to sit here now, right? I mean, I said it at the beginning and joke about like a highly educated woman, right? Like, but it's it's a funny thing to sit here and say that like I'm no different than anybody else, right? Like there wasn't a clear pathway for me to even get to the place that I'm at now, right? And it's it's it's nice to hear you say those things because it's right, like Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I'm just I'm just a guy, right? I think what what a lot of people in recovery have, and I try to help people in early recovery to motivate them, like we can do things, yeah. Like I spent a lot of time waiting for drugs, like I was really fucking patient.
SPEAKER_01:I was dedicated to a lot of the wrong things, right?
SPEAKER_02:And and when you shift that and the stuff that I've been through in my life, like like I say dissertation, but I've been through things in my life, like I'll go through things now. Like I think maybe you can do this now, and using that tragedy of losing Ryan, that I've been through some things. Yeah, I can get through this.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_02:And I do that now, like writing grants or doing some of the other work I do in the world. You know, I've done a dissertation, I can do this.
SPEAKER_01:Right. It one of the things that came up in the thinking, and I I watch you do this in in thinking about some of the questions in public. Health thinking and and educational background is the the um ecological model. I mean people see that right it's from the center out and my thinking is always very much that right and it's not that I'm at the center, but it's very you know small. Um you know anyways, I could go on about that, but that's that's the the ripple effect that people talk about, right? And it and it starts with a a small decision, yeah, right? Showing up to class even when I yeah, doing the work, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, this has been good. Okay, this is the time where I put that there. Okay, hug.
SPEAKER_00:Oh. Because we've never done that, only all the time.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, thank you for joining me. You're very welcome. This has been great.