Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
What If Kindness Is The Strongest Recovery Tool w/guest MarkAnthony Breuninger
What if recovery had less to do with dramatic turnarounds and more to do with steady presence, clear boundaries, and everyday compassion? That’s the heart of our conversation with Mark Anthony—a devoted son, “fun gunkle,” care coordinator, and pillar in Ellensburg’s recovery network—who arrived in town with a car full of belongings and built a life by showing up for others and himself.
We trace his path from divorce and Oxford House to meaningful work with elders, where loneliness and end-of-life realities sharpen a simple truth: time is precious. Mark shares the self-care practices that keep him grounded—movies for joy, meditation to center before hard conversations, therapy to stay honest. We dig into the myth of “not doing enough,” and replace it with evidence-based steadiness: be dependable, keep boundaries, and let service come from a full cup. His insights on community systems hit home for professionals in ERs, jails, law enforcement, and courts: plant seeds, make warm handoffs, and remember the window for change can be small but real.
The conversation turns to belonging versus fitting in, especially for LGBTQ folks in small towns. Mark names the shame and isolation of earlier years and how that fuels his gift for inclusion today. Mentors who offered safety without judgment modeled the trust that makes growth possible. For anyone struggling, his message is clear and actionable: try. Go to a meeting. Expect discomfort. Stay present. Borrow belief from someone ahead of you and give yourself the dignity of one honest day at a time.
If this moved you, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs hope today, and leave a quick review to help others find these conversations. Your support helps us keep planting seeds.
Yeah. Okay. So TikTok's there. Facebook's there. This is perfect. Oh yeah. We look good on there. Yeah. Oh yeah. You have great hair.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks. So do I. I know. You do. I'm waiting for it to get longer. Come on.
SPEAKER_01:Come on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Okay. Well, okay, so first things first. Oh. Merry Christmas. Douglas Annual Christmas card. Um, and uh, so we'll get started. Uh welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. My name's David Douglas, and with me today is a good friend, Mark Anthony. I'm excited to talk to him. And uh yesterday I had an author's event. It's the second author's event I've ever done. This one is it was at Gerald's in Ellensburg, and I sold 10 books. It was really cool. What? Yeah, so my shameless plug for my book, it's available wherever you buy books. Gerald's and Pearl Street Books in Ellensburg. You can get it online at Gerald's.com and then Amazon has paperback, ebook, and there's audiobook on Audible, and that one is yours.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, enjoy. Enjoy the read. Oh, look, and it's it's it's signed. Yeah, if one day I go famous, you can say I I remember this guy.
SPEAKER_02:I yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope you remember us little people. No, I didn't forget about that's fine, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's all right. That's all right.
SPEAKER_00:All right, thank you. So with me today is Mark Anthony. Um known you for how long have you been in Ellensburg?
SPEAKER_02:2018, so seven years.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. Known you about that long. Yeah. Um, and uh fellow people in recovery. Um, you're my son's best friend. Um that that has always for me when I know, you know, as a father to a son that your son's struggling and um that you've been there for him. Um I try. That is always, yeah, we do. We we do what we can. Um, but that's always meant a lot to me. And the relationship you have with my grandsons is is super cool, you know. So you love them. Yeah, yeah. And then you're uh you're an integral part of the community in a variety of ways, uh, through the recovery community, through the work you do with KCHN. Um, so I'll let you, I would like you thinking about as we're recording this for people who don't know you, right? Now we've got people on the lives who know you and are like, yeah, Mark Anthony, but introduce yourself thinking about someone who never heard anything about you.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Uh my name is Mark Anthony. I my last name is crazy, so I don't really use it, right? So and my friends call me Ma.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And I I respond to that, you know. Um, but I am, if you would have asked me this a while ago, I don't know what I would have said because I didn't think I was anybody.
SPEAKER_00:So today, I could say a while ago, how long ago?
SPEAKER_02:I'd probably say like eight years ago. Okay. Right? Yep. Before when my recovery journey started. Yep. And uh today I can say that I'm a devoted son. I am the fun gunkle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:For those that don't know, uh the fun gay uncle, right? And I have lots of nieces and nephews, and I take that job very seriously. Like you had said about your your grandchildren. Yeah, yeah. I I I love them and I take that job seriously. I am uh a good friend and a good brother, right? Yeah. First and foremost, though, I am a person in long-term recovery. I say first and foremost because without that, yeah, I don't get to be anything else. I can't do all the others, I can't, can we? Right. I don't get to be anything else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's a little bit about me. And I I'm Jack of all trades. I've done every kind of work there is from selling shoes to now being, you know, in uh oh yeah, yeah, shoes, cars, yeah, uh hotel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, you that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and you sold cars? I sold cars. Okay, I sold Volkswagens.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. Yeah, cool. And um This has been kind of cool because I get to learn about some different career paths my friends have done. So that's that's cool. You sold shoes where?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, this was in Phoenix, Arizona. It was it's a place called Just for Feet. Okay, okay, well, that's appropriate.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's cool.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. That was that was like my first job. Yeah, that was my first job back in the day.
SPEAKER_00:Now, so you've been in Ellensburg since 2018 and you came from Rhode Island? Yes. What brought you here?
SPEAKER_02:Uh, my marriage.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:So I got married in 2014 when it was legalized. Gay marriage was legalized. Yeah, yeah. And uh I wasn't really doing anything over there. He was an executive, and he moved to or he's like, You want to move to Yakima? And I'm like, Japan? Yes, yes, I do. I do want to move to Japan.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and he's like, No, no, Palm Springs of Washington.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:So we moved to Yakima in 2015. But yeah. Oh, wow, okay. So I've been here 10 years now in Washington State. Okay. And in 2018, we decided to separate and get a divorce. And I moved here to Ellensburg because there was a friend of mine that said, Hey, there's a uh sober living house that we're opening up. They're opening up here. Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, the first Oxford house. Oh, really? Okay. Oh wow. So I moved here with just the things in my car, and uh and that was it. No job, nothing. Wow and uh Wow. And here we are now, seven years later.
SPEAKER_00:And almost from day one, and this is something I admire about you, you just like dove in to the community. You you created friendships and you're you're one of the the kindest people I know in a way that you're always you're always wanting to bring people in. I like I'm a watcher of people, and I watch you when people, you know, the good like with my son, I'm just you know, selfishly talk about that. How I know you've really been there for Tyler, and I know that's not just an isolated thing for you.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's super cool.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. Yeah, I I don't know that I do it.
SPEAKER_00:You just do it.
SPEAKER_02:I just I just do it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, we might get to some of why here with the questions. So yeah. Um, so moved moved to Washington State 2015, moved to Palm Springs of Washington, thinking it was Japan. That's awesome. That's funny. I never thought of it that Yakama. Japan? Yeah, yes. Sure. Uh what do you have on sport? We got you up in Ellensburg in 2018. Yeah. And uh career. What are you doing now? So now don't know.
SPEAKER_02:Uh I was I was a manager at one of the hotels here Hotel Windrow. Yep. And then that was just killing me. I remember that. It was killing me. And so now I work, well, I worked with you KCRCO for a little bit, KCRCO, right? And uh, and now I'm at a nonprofit. Yeah, it's called Kittitas County Health Network, and I'm a care coordinator. So I do still work with the folks that are in recovery or or seeking recovery, but my main focus is the elderly. Oh, nice. And it just kind of that's it just kind of evolved to that, you know? That's awesome. Uh and it's pretty special. It's pretty special.
SPEAKER_00:I you know, I just had this thought. So, you know, Jay. Jay works in hospice care. We've worked together, yeah. I'm sure. And I bet you you you are really good. I'm getting chills. It's my late mom's birthday today. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And yeah, it's you know, the her the care she received from people in your type of position um just like uh it was it meant so much to me and I know my family. Um I'm just lost his name. He works with uh Mark or he works with uh with Jay? Jay, um the other hospice guy.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well uh Chad? Chad, Chad, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I'll never forget, you know, our first conversations um when mom started hospice care. Because I'm a realist and and I remember him and I pulled him outside and we had a I'm like, so just be real with me. You know, it's okay, you don't have to sugarcoat it. And he and he was in a very kind way, in a very real way. And from that point until mom passed, he was just amazing. And I and I just know that you're that type of person. Not that you're working in hospice care, but you probably have some of those hard conversations, yeah. So it's good that we have someone like you working in that type of role in this community.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you, super cool.
SPEAKER_02:It's uh it's special, and that's funny. I I do work, I have worked with Jay. Yeah, and yeah, and our paths have crossed for sure. Yeah, and it is it is hard, like that. Oh yeah, I do a little bit of that, yeah. That's yeah a completely different yeah, it's a heavy weight, it's a heavy weight.
SPEAKER_00:I had um Henry on last week, you know. We were just it's uh that that his field, he's dealing with death, and and it's it's a lot. So let we'll go into the question. So what do you just thinking about your role uh in life? What do you do for self-care that really takes care of you? We kind of talked a little bit about this downstairs.
SPEAKER_02:We did, we did. Uh some things have shifted in my life, right? Like we had a full house recently. You did, uh very full house, five people in a two-bedroom little duplex. Yeah, um for a year, for a year, for a year, adults and kids, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And a dog or two? Uh one dog, one dog, and one dog, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I'm glad I love my family. Yeah, we all love each other, yeah, right? Yes, and uh that yeah, we're very bonded like that. But for me, um going to the movies is self-care for me. Oh yeah, nice. That's a really, really big cool. Uh sounds weird, right? But I mean, I mean, you could do pedicures, manicures, whatever. That too, sure, but like going to the movies, it's a time for me just to be doing something that I love. Like I love the whole movie experience. I love it all. The big screen, the popcorn sitting, yeah, the sound, and yeah, you know, we got new owners of the movies. I know, I met them, they're fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:Good, I'm excited.
SPEAKER_02:Listen, listen, I was there one day on a Friday afternoon. Um and it was like one something. The first show was 1 40. Yep. And I texted Tim. I'm like, Tim, are you not open today? Oh and he said, Oh no, we're the we're open on the weekend. Oh no. It was my birthday. It was my birthday. Oh, okay. It was right. And I'm like, oh no, man. That's so yes, yes. Um, and meditation. Meditation has been a huge thing for me uh lately, especially like the past two years. That's a bit that's a big one. And funny, I meditated before I came in here this morning because you know I had some nerves, lancious. Yep. It just it helps center me and gets me here to the be personal and intentional.
SPEAKER_00:So probably important for you with your role in your work too. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I have to take care of myself. Um, and then there's therapy. You might not think that that's self-care, but that is absolutely self-care. That's huge self-care. Yeah. Uh that's big, that's a big one for me. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Good. All right. Let's dive into one of these first questions. Sure. Sure, help facilitate some further conversation on some of the things that you've already talked about. Uh, you've been in my son's life now for years, right? Yeah. And have become part of our family in a lot of ways. Um, in fact, you get upset with me when I don't invite you, but you just show up. I mean, you don't even have to get upset anyway. Yeah. It's kind of a joke. When you look back on your journey, this kind of gets into the why. I want to dive a little deep, no pun intended, of the why of why you do what you do. What helped shape you into the steady, kind, grounded man you are today?
SPEAKER_02:Great question. And I don't think of myself as steady, right? Okay. Um, or grounded. Okay. I I think I'm just like everywhere. Okay. Uh, I do think I'm kind, right? Oh, good.
SPEAKER_00:So you own that one. I own that one. Yeah. The other two, I'm like, oh, thanks, David. But you don't feel like that.
SPEAKER_02:No, not no. No.
SPEAKER_00:Describe a normal day for you in your brain.
SPEAKER_02:Oh gosh. Wake up in the morning, just get ready, take my take my nephew to work, have some breakfast with my mom. She loves I I live with my mom, right? Yeah. Or she lives with me. She is. And she cooks breakfast. That it that makes her happy. So I don't take that away from her. No. And have my breakfast, get the little kid ready, take him to school, and then I'm at work. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So it's she get up and get moving.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And then I do my work. And then I'm probably have something planned afterwards. Okay. Hanging out with a friend, going to a meeting, doing something. Uh so for me, it I feel like I'm always going, going, going, going, going.
SPEAKER_00:So let me ask you a question about that. Is that like Monday through Friday? That's your normal week?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know what I would call that? What? Steady. I know. I gotcha. But right, isn't that even though I know in your brain, because I know a little bit about you, you know, I know you struggle with depression, anxiety, all the things that we all struggle with.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I guess I'll ask you, so if you think 15 years ago, oh gosh. Was that what you are today?
SPEAKER_02:No. I could probably say the the kind still.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right. But no, 15 years ago was a whirlwind of I have no idea what's happening today. So good on you. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:We're clocking. That's just yeah, yeah. And then the grounded, like I I'm challenging you on these just because you and I don't hang out a lot. We hang out, we see each other at functions. I see you with Tyler, but but my observer of people is what I know about you is that when someone needs you to be there, oh you can be grounded. Sure. Even though if maybe in your brain you might be struggling with whatever, but like like dude, the fact that that you allow your mom to live with you, that's I don't know if you know how big a deal that is. Because there are a lot of people that wouldn't do that. And not I'm not saying that in a bad way, sure. But also that that you you just let your sister and her kids and you you're guys like, I'm like, wow, good on you. I don't know if I could do that. Sure. Okay, that's huge. And so I think that speaks to my view of you, and I bet you some followers out there would agree that we view you as a really an in you're an integral part of this community. Integral part of this community. And it's because you're you you own that you're kind, right? I've never seen you mad. I would like to see that. Yeah, I would like to see that. Ask my mom. Ask my sister. I'm sure the people you live with. Yeah. But the steady and grounded, it's it's someone, someone that people can count on. Would you say that you're someone people can count on?
SPEAKER_02:I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. All right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And and I don't want to be dismissive of you saying you don't feel steady and grounded. So what does that mean to you when when you don't think you're steady and grounded?
SPEAKER_02:I think grounded means like uh for me is oh gosh, now as I'm saying it, I'm like, okay, I guess I'm pretty grounded. Um someone there that is dependable that can that can call me and I show up when I can, how I can. So I I think thank you for opening that up.
SPEAKER_00:Uh I think it's good for us to hear from others that challenge, because I struggle with um I'm not doing enough. That's one thing that I struggle with.
unknown:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Right. And that's the reaction. Like even Katrina will, you know, she'll be like, Well, she'll sh you ready for this? You think I'm doing enough for the kids in the preschool? And I and I go, What? You're one of the she is easily one of the hardest working people I know when it comes to diving in and really taking care of things in all areas. And even with myself, like, oh, I should be doing more on campus, or I should be doing and people go, What? What are you talking about? Wait till your question. Well, that's okay. But so it's I think it's good for us to hear, I think it's good for you to hear and others to hear too, that you know, we have this view of ourselves, which I think can be good to challenge ourselves to stay on track and do the good.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah, yeah, I agree, I agree, absolutely, because we are our own worst critics, right? Yeah, and like you, I don't do enough. My sponsor is like, you do enough, yeah. You do enough, yeah. So that tells me that there's something going on inside still that needs to be worked on.
SPEAKER_00:So do you think for me it comes from having lived a life where I wasn't doing much? So it drives me, and I think it's okay at some level if I'm not using it to be defeating to keep me s moving forward. Is that the same for you?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, like purpose-driven life type thing, you know, because I didn't have a purpose before. And and but also I was neglectful before. Yeah, and so I think it's a little bit of the guilt too, you know, that drives me into that. And that's when I have people like you and your son and my sponsor that say, pump the brakes, dude. Yeah, pump the brakes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay. Let's see what's the next one is. Oh, yeah, this will be good. You work for a local nonprofit uh that does some support for people in recovery, but also the community as a whole and the wider community. What does that work mean to you personally and how has that strengthened your own recovery?
SPEAKER_02:So, as I was saying earlier, right? Like uh it I kind of just got into this role after KCRCO. I I knew that I wanted to help people. That I that's just innate. Um, as far as like personally, it has uh made me really aware of the self-care thing. That I have to need that you have to take yeah, I have to take care of myself in order to take care of others. Uh because and that goes in into every part of my life now. I can't go here, do this, do this, do this, do this, and spread myself so thin that I don't have time for me. Because there's a lot of me to give. However, I need to give some of that to me. Right. So in my recovery, that it's that's how it strengthened it is to really look inside.
SPEAKER_00:And um because part of being people in recovery is as we gain a life in recovery, part of what we're told and what is good is to give back.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:To be of service, to be of service, be of service, to give back to other individuals and the community or whatever. But we we learn, and that's what I'm hearing you say, in your role as is your job, the thing that pays the bills, yeah, that you really enjoy that work, but you've also learned it's helped you recognize you have to take care of yourself. Right, right. So So important. So important.
SPEAKER_02:And then also like I said earlier, I I I have uh you know elderly clients that don't have family.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That don't have anyone. And uh and that's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Um and it's taught me to appreciate my family more and my mom and the time that we have. Yeah. Right. And and and all the people in my life. Yeah. That that it's important because not everyone has that. Right. So that that's strengthened.
SPEAKER_00:When my niece uh she passed last year, and yeah, we were up to St. Joe's in the ICU, and like we had 15 people in her room, you know. And I remember talking to one of the doctors, and he thanked me. And I'm like, what do you think? He's like, We see people die alone. This is unusual. Right. And so you see that people are alone for whatever reason. For whatever. Um, and again, I'm gonna do it again. Wow, isn't it great to know for all our friends listening in Ellensburg and Kittitas County that we have people like you and Jay and other people who work in our healthcare system that are making sure our elderly are not alone. Yeah, yeah. And it's on, you know, the anniversary of my mom's birthday. I'm serious, dude. I I love that your mom is in your life and the way she is, and that you allow her, you I don't want to use that word, but you give her that space to be with you. That's huge. Thanks. Yeah, it's super cool. Ah, this is yeah, let's I'm I'm interested to hear your view on this one. Okay, you've become a strong advocate for people in recovery. Okay. I know that's who you are. Like I see you do that. What do you think? Oh, sorry. What's one thing you wish the community as a whole understood better about those walking this path?
SPEAKER_02:Listen, I had to write something down for this one. Great, pull it up. Yeah. Uh just a little please something. Ah. Okay. What I wrote was um that it is a journey. Recovery is a journey, right? It's not just like an overnight thing because they're in recovery, everything has changed. Yeah. Um and to to have compassion and the support because people want to be seen and and and heard, but it it's a journey. I think that that was the that was the biggest thing I wanted to say.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's not linear, is it? No, it's not linear.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, yeah, it's this. Yeah, actually. I don't, yeah. Yeah. Um, and uh, and just that support. Like for me, I had the support from my family, right? I was fortunate, I and I know that that my family was always there saying, I love you, I um, I respect you, even when you're not fully 100% there and in the addiction. But they loved me through that, where I was. Uh, and I think that's the big the big thing is that um be there however you can be.
SPEAKER_00:What would you say? You know, you you work in the community for one of our larger nonprofits. Um so I'm I'm just guessing you interact at some maybe. Anyway, what would you say to our friends who work in prof professions? I'm thinking uh law enforcement, I'm thinking the ER, I'm thinking um our our uh rapid access where you can just go in and get I'm thinking the jail. Um for people who don't who who see the damage all the time. Yeah, even our family members. We have family members, I take phone calls from family who say, you know, my son's just keeps using, keeps what would you say to those people that rightly so in some way are jaded? Because they don't see this. Yeah, what would you say to them to give them hope?
SPEAKER_02:To get um that's that's a really good question. I uh compassion it comes down to compassion, I think. You know, and that's easier said than done.
SPEAKER_00:It is what does it look like? If you you you're on the phone with the family, uh mom or dad is like, you know, little Johnny. Johnny of course my dog, but okay, little Joey, uh, you know, he's he just keeps returning to use and he steals from us, and or you know, just whatever all these negative we love him, but we just don't even know what to do. Uh we're mad. What would you what would be your advice?
SPEAKER_02:You have to take care of yourself, like you have to stay safe. Oh wow. And that's not an easy thing to say, right? Yeah. Um but but they have to want to recover, as you know, you know, and it's it's a hard truth that if you have to set a boundary with them, that's okay, but still love them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, love them at an arm's length if you need to, but know that they're there and just say, I I I can listen. I'm I'm here in that way. Um that's that's a hard question, David.
SPEAKER_00:It is a tough one. So, and I you're you're kind of saying what what I say and what I hear hear other people say is what I suggest to families is is healthy boundaries in all areas of your life, including with your family members who are in active use. You know, and it's not I'm personally, and I I'm curious to hear your view. I'm I'm not one that just cut them off, just you know, shut off all resources and they just need to suffer. Well, I my belief is people die when that happens when we cut them off. But it's also, you know, having healthy boundaries for myself and my house and my family. Um, Tyler, if he's on, he remembers, you know, our door was open to him. But there were a couple of times we he came and it was like, nope, that behavior is not acceptable here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm sorry, but you have to go. And I remember when he called me from treatment. He's like, I'm in treatment, or I he was going, whatever it is. And I grabbed some guys and we went down and we went to the first opportunity to see him. So it's kind of that balancing act, right?
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. And now I'm I'm thinking more about the question that you had asked me, right? Uh about the workers in the community. Yeah. I I think they just need to do what they can, like their role, and that's where the compassion comes in, right? Like at the ER. Okay, you you may see this guy over and over coming in because he's having a hard time with alcohol. Help him how you can.
SPEAKER_00:I like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Right? Yep. And not just, oh, it's this guy again. Ugh he probably wants meds to come down, you know, and that's that's the hard part. Just help where you can. And like law enforcement. And we're pretty lucky here that the law enforcement here knows our the resources that are in the community. Yeah, we are fortunate. And so does the ER. Or and and that's what they're doing.
SPEAKER_00:Same with our jail. Like there we have a lot of we are the work that Ed Bunton does and his staff at the jail for being, you know, a rural community, we're above and beyond many corrections facilities by providing access to resources while the person's incarcerated. Right. So if you're a corrections officer, keep providing those resources, right? Yes. I always say, and you might I I think you'll agree with this, is keep planting seeds.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:So for our professionals working, keep planting seeds. That's it. Keep saying, hey, here's a resource. Right. Here's a resource. And that speaks to when they're ready, they know. They know, exactly.
SPEAKER_02:They're something in them is like, oh yeah, they told me about this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, maybe I'll try that because it's a very brief window. Yeah, small, very small. And uh, if the if it's planted, then hopefully it comes through, you know? That's good.
SPEAKER_00:I like it. Um, started doing this. Let's see how deep, yeah, how deep we can go with this one. This I I spoke to earlier that we would come to this. So here it is. You're someone who, in my view, naturally brings people together, even if you don't see that yourself. I see that happen. What do you think helps you create that sense of belonging wherever you go? Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh, I had to think on this one for sure. And it comes from the sense of not belonging in my past because I was the outcast. I was the one that was different, and I didn't b feel like I belonged anywhere. Like I was a smart kid, I could play sports, um, but there was something that I was hiding, right? That I could not couldn't talk about, couldn't talk about, or was ashamed to talk about. That that's a big part of it, was the shame. And um and I don't want anyone to feel like that. Ever. Like ever. Um this word is gonna come up, the the compassion. And that's a big thing for me. Really big thing. And the like uh connection. Yeah, like the the connection is what I was lacking, so now I have the ability like to have it. And so I I want people to know that I'm safe. And one thing I have learned about that, the connecting people together, or like I wanted everyone to come together.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like uh you, oh, that's my friend.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, you can be their friend too. So come on, come on, come on. But that's I I'm learning that yeah, that's not that it doesn't have to be like that, that I can be that person's friend and also that person's friend, but they don't have to be always together. I just want the people that I'm in contact with to know that I care about them and that they have someone. Because in my active addiction, I was so alone. As we that's where where we all get to, right? Is that desperation and and thinking, oh gosh, that there's nobody. What's the point?
SPEAKER_00:So if you think back to you've been in recovery how long? Eight years.
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:Who were those people in your early days that helped helped you? Because obviously someone did. Yeah. They must have.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Oh yeah. Who were they? So my one friend, Ryan, a, not not, not our Ryan. Uh, I met him in Yakimaw, and he was the first guy that had said something in a meeting that I heard. Okay. He said something about honesty, and I just like it clicked. Whoa. Yeah. Right? So I jumped in his back pocket. Okay. I said, Hey, uh, I heard that we're supposed to get a sponsor. Will you be my sponsor? And he's like, dude, I have like three months. I I have none. You do? Sure. You know, um, but we became friends. Nice. And we bonded and I just watched him, right? Uh, he's the one of the reasons I came here, because he's like, Hey, we're opening up that Oxford house. So that's how I got here. So he was a really, really big proponent of of that connection.
SPEAKER_00:So it was something you heard from him, then you took a risk and said, Hey, would you work with me? Yep. And that's where that connection started. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Who else? Oh gosh. My first sponsor was a female. And um because I was not comfortable talking with men. So she really helped we worked through like the first step. And I I got to know myself a little bit. And she had she just helped me to grow. She's still in my life today. This is an anonymous program, I won't say. Um sorry, Ryan.
SPEAKER_00:But another person, uh, this individual who you walk through, for those don't know, uh, first step is about really kind of opening yourself up a bit to another human, and that can be really difficult. Yeah, but she must have provided a space where you felt safe. Yes. What was it about her that made you feel safe?
SPEAKER_02:There was no judgment. And there was something in common more than just the addiction. Right? Yeah, cool. It was our sexuality, and uh and that helped. Because, like you said, it's it's about building that trust and and uh trusting that person to talk about stuff because it's deep.
SPEAKER_00:And that's how we really strengthen our recovery, though, isn't it? By getting real with another human or humans, you know, that's why I always if I go to my counselor, I feel pretty safe in there because legally she can't say anything in the community and the recovery community, or just in my life, just in general, as I get to know, we kind of test that trust. I'm gonna share a little bit about myself and see how you react. Right.
SPEAKER_02:Right. That's that's the thing, right? Like if you're like appalled and I can't talk about that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, or we see it in people's faces, though, right? Right, yeah, right so you you early on had some people that didn't react, yeah, or reacted positively, or yeah, and that allowed you the space to open up more, and then that that gave you that confidence to go, I want to give that to other people, right? So that's why you do what you do.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, yes, like yeah, in that context, absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_00:And the more we do that, I say, the more lives we can save. Yeah, right? Absolutely, the more healing that we can allow happen. Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, okay. How are we doing, friends? Oh, and the courts, oh yeah, okay. Nancy and the courts who allow furloughs to treatment if they choose. Yes, that is good. So Nancy Fraser, she she's a counselor, she lives here in Ellensburg, person and recovery. She's been a counselor for a long time. So yeah, I agree. When courts allow people, in fact, that's what happened for me when I was uh turning my is they allowed me to go to treatment, they traded treatment day for day for jail. Right. That's huge. Yes, thank you. And we're fortunate. I always forget to say locally, our court system, our judges, we are fortunate. We have some great judges that really allow for recovery to happen while also holding people accountable.
SPEAKER_02:And that's the that's the thing, right? People say, Oh, no jail time. Okay, I'm gonna do that. Yeah, but then there's work behind a lot of work behind that. Yeah, uh, and it is it is incredible because just no matter how you get into the recovery, you know, hopefully it sticks. Yeah, and a lot of the time it does. And that that is a huge benefit for our community. It is, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so I want to ask you something, and this wasn't planned, but I've had Henry on last week. Okay, and Henry uh is an integral part of our community. He's married to his partner, Marvin, not Martin, because I got his name last week. He talked about, I can't remember exactly what he talked about, about this period of time for gay men where it's really hard to find a partner. Oh, okay. I I I'm not gay. I didn't, I'm like, uh, but also small community. How is that for you? Just uh being a gay man in a small community.
SPEAKER_02:Uh at first that was another reason I moved here to Ellisburg because there are no gay bars, because there's there wasn't a big gay scene, because I I wanted to work on myself.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Oh, okay. So you wanted to limit yourself, right?
SPEAKER_02:Okay, right, okay. And I'm like, oh, this is great. This is great. Now a few years in, it's like, oh gosh, what did I do to myself? Yeah. Uh it's hard. Yeah, it's hard in a small community like this because I've lived in big cities where you you can lots of options, lots of options, and and you walk down the street or go into a store and you we're just there. Here, it has definitely been it's been hard, honestly. And I've dated a few people, but not from here. No, I don't think yeah.
SPEAKER_00:No, no dating for a gay man, you probably similar to heterosexual. There's apps, there's so for the gay community, but in Ellensburg, there's not a lot of not a lot to choose from.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_00:I'm thinking right now, because I work on campus and I just in the community about my friends who are who are gay or lesbian, and and I almost could know them all. Right, right, because we're pretty limited.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it it is a very limited pool to pull from, even for the the heteroids.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, right, right. Okay, and then you go to the recovery community itself because that and that's pretty normal, right? That you date within the communities that you're in. Yeah, so that even limits it even more for a gay male, yeah. Man, wow. In his mid-40s. That's what Henry was talking about. This period of, I forget what he gay death or something. It was this dating scene period of time where you're like you're just not even on the market. So it was weird.
SPEAKER_02:I'm like, okay, interesting. Yeah, no, it's it's it's a real thing. It's a real thing. It's a real thing. That's why people lie on the dating apps about their age. Because if you're over a certain age, people don't want that anymore, you know? Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I did I missed last week's uh, but I'm gonna go back and go listen to the part he talks about.
SPEAKER_00:And because as soon as I said that, you're like, mm-hmm. He said it really clearly. I'm like, oh wow, didn't he? Because he, oh, he was talking about when him and Marvin met, he was like, Okay, there's no red flags here. I really like this guy. He's like, Let's go. Yeah, their dating period to getting married was really short. Yep. Yep. And he part, you know, Marvin's great, he's that's it's worth it, but he's like, I I need to find someone or not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and that's the I feel that. Yeah, I feel that because like in our 20s and 30s, there was the dating thing that we went out for months. I think now, like, yeah, we have to like grasp it. We just oh, no red flags, dot that has a career, has you know, yeah, oh come on, come on, and I did that one time, yeah. Uh I think you remember Bill, maybe. I do, yeah, yeah, yeah. From Eugene Oregon, I do remember. I'm like, come on, yeah, come on, didn't work out, didn't work out, didn't work out, and that's okay. That's okay. Uh, I would agree with him that you gotta snag him up because we're yeah few and far between.
SPEAKER_00:So if you're out there and you're listening to this in the Ellensburg, Kiditas County surrounding areas, Mark Anthony is a single male. If you're a you know working good man and gay and like what you see here, send us a message.
SPEAKER_02:Shameless plug.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, thank you for answering. Answering that. That's not just want you to know that you know you always have my support, and and you know, there's more of this community loves you than not simply because you're a gay man.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, so I'm a token gay. I get it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. We always smell good, right?
SPEAKER_02:It's always nice. That's what I want on my tombstone. Uh tombstone, gravestone. Yeah, you're like smell our Anthony. Always smelled good.
SPEAKER_00:That's hilarious. All right, let's go to our last two questions. Okay. This one is your opportunity, kind of like at the beginning, your opportunity to tell the world a message of hope. Not the friends that know you that are watching, not the friends that will listen to this that know you, but someone out there who's struggling and listening to this. And it could be with addiction or mental health or just life. What is your message of hope so that they can they can get a feeling through this medium that they too can change? They can turn it around, they can flip the script.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. Really another really good question that I had to think about. And I had to write something down on this one. The willingness to try. Um, because like we talked about, right? It it's very brief. Uh that window. That window of hope, of want, yeah, of of of needing to change something. I think the biggest thing, right, is the is the willingness to try to change. Because the fear sets into like, oh gosh, this is this is it, or I don't know what it's gonna look like, and uh, I'm just gonna stay here because this is all I know. This is the easy thing.
SPEAKER_00:It's hard, but it's comfortable. Right. I know it's not good, but I'm used to it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:This is the easy choice. So, what do you say? What action would you say to them to take if they're listening to this and they're like, oh, here, yeah, I want what would you say? What what would you tell them to do?
SPEAKER_02:Uh for me, get to a meeting. Okay. Like first and foremost, right? There's many roads to recovery as you as you advocate. Yeah. But for me, it's it's it's get to a meeting. It's gonna be uncomfortable, it's gonna be weird, it's gonna be different, you're not gonna feel like you fit in.
SPEAKER_00:But any change is that way though, right? Right, right.
SPEAKER_02:Any change. And uh just just go and try it. Okay, uh uh, because uh change uh does happen, not overnight, unfortunately. It takes time, it takes time, it's a journey, you know, and we stumble. Yeah, we do, we stumble, yeah, but then we keep moving forward to even though we don't see it, even though you know, and we're reminded by folks the journey that we've been on, yeah. And we get to see that through somebody else's eyes, and that's pretty cool.
SPEAKER_00:Like that's pretty cool, and that that's uh just clicked in my brain. You know, if someone chooses to go to a meeting, I remember when I early recovery, this was in Tacoma for me in the mid-90s, and my life was just had been a fucking mess, and just it was dark and it was ugly. And I remember this one guy, he he had a job and he had a family, and and he looked healthy, and I was like, Oh, okay, and you see you see multiple people like that, and I remember you'll agree, you'll see many people who have attained recovery for a period of time remember back, like, is he lying? No way you have 90 days, but then we we keep coming back, right? Right, whether it's A, N A, your church. I don't, I don't care what you do, but you see someone out in front who's doing the thing, uh, and says something to you, like you said, that clicks, like that's familiar to me.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, I relate to that.
SPEAKER_00:I've been to you've been to jail and now you have a great life. Yeah, you've been through heartbreak, you've been through trauma, and now you're able to live your life. That's appealing, right? Right. And then you said something else too, I think is really important is to not look way down the road. That's unknown, it's always unknown. And you talked in the beginning about meditation. I do my own things on a daily basis that keep me here. Yes, right now. This is all we got.
SPEAKER_02:That's it, right?
SPEAKER_00:Like that's it. We've got now this. So in each of these now's, do something to better your tomorrow.
SPEAKER_02:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And uh it's the intentional being here, being intentional here, yeah, is a big thing that I'm I'm really working on. You know, I like right now, I'm here on a podcast with you. Yep. That and that's what we're doing. Yeah, that that's it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and if I'm there, I don't have the fear of what's gonna happen.
SPEAKER_00:Looking in my rearview mirror, worried about all the shit I fucked up. Exactly. And early, early recovery, it's really difficult to do that. Yeah, but that's where one of the one of the best gifts I got from being a person in recovery in the recovery community is living in a 24-hour period. Living in now. Just for today. That's it. All we got. Just for today. This is all we got, right? Right. And that helped me to stay now. And okay, I need to look back there, but maybe I do that with a trusted person. Yeah, someone that can guide me, whether it's a sponsor or a counselor, which I've used them all, right? Or a friend, to hold my hand while we look back and go, let's take a look back at what happened so we don't repeat it.
SPEAKER_02:That's that's it. That's the thing. Yeah, super cool.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, here we go. Uh-oh. This is the part we're always nervous. Oh, nervous. Yeah, well, I know. The shocker. Shocker. What is a question you've always wanted to ask me?
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I had to think about this one, had to ask some people, you know, get some input. Uh, many, many questions, David Douglas. No, but I I came I came to this one. You are an entrepreneur. You have started many businesses and endeavors and do so many things, right? How? How do you where? Okay, where do you get the motivation? How do you keep doing it? Where does that come from?
SPEAKER_00:Well, similar I can just say it's because I this sense of so when I first got in recovery in 96, yeah, and I really got on the recovery train and was doing things, I felt like I had this inner desire and need to catch up with life, right? It didn't serve me well. And when I returned to use in 2006 and then came back to recovery in 2007, I changed how I look at money. Because one of it is I wanted to make this certain amount of money. And I just changed I I flipped the script on that, and I just went, no, you gotta, you know, just live your life and do what you want to do.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:I have a strong desire on a daily well, here we go. Impact, legacy. Those are the things I think about regularly on the anniversary on my mom's birthday, right? Thinking, I think about my mom on a regular basis. I think about Johnny Ravel, who was the stepdad who actually gave a shit about me, and who Johnny, my dog, is named after, right? Uh his flags on that wall, Johnny Ravel. That I've always got those people in my head. And so that's what drives me to do good in the world.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:That's what drives me to do all the things I do. And then how I want to be remembered by my grandsons and by my son. How you know, and it people might think, oh, why do you think well, it's important to me. Um, you know, me and Anthony have grandpa and and Anthony talks about character and about reputation. I'm glad I thought of this. My biological father, Danny Douglas, who I found when I was 29, and we had a decent relationship, a friendship, I would say, until he passed. I'll never forget when he said, because he was a shit, I never had him in my life. And he was a terrible drunk for a lot of years. He put a gun to my mom's head, he sexually abused my brother, right? So that whole relationship when I found him, like I said, we had a friendship for the most part, but I remember him saying this one point along the way, and it's always stuck in my brain, and it's what drives me to do good in the world. Okay. I was always viewed as a dirty Douglas, and he said it in a way, yeah. Oh, and I yeah, and I'm like, no, because the Douglas name, I would I went by a different I've gone by two different last names. Interesting. Yeah. Oh I went by Emerson and was actually told by my siblings and mom, my biological father was this guy, Jerry Emerson, who was also another piece of shit. He sexually abused both of my sisters, he beat my mother, right? And so, and just like, oh, and then I went by Ravel, which was Johnny Ravel. Okay, all right, and then Johnny died. And then I went back to Emerson. It wasn't until I went in the military that I had to go by Douglas because that's what's on my birth certificate. Yeah. Okay. And so it wouldn't be until I was 29, got on recovery, got into recovery, I wanted to know. I wanted to find this guy and see him and just figure it out. The day I saw him, I was like, that's my dad. You there's no denying who my dad is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And when he said that, and it's been a long time ago, when he said the dirty Douglas comment, it's always stuck with me. And so for me, as a dad, as a grandfather, as a friend, as a community member, it's it's important to me to do good. And it's not just like reputation, character, but to also help others do the same. Because I have a belief that the more we spread a message of hope, the more we help people see they have it within them to do the do the good things, to do powerful things, the better our world is. There you go. There's your long drawn-out answer.
SPEAKER_02:Great answer. Uh that uh I got to know you a little bit more too.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully, you know. Yeah. The peeps out there. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Uh oh, we got our life restricted for some reason. Oh boy. Uh-oh. You said some bad words.
SPEAKER_02:Oh well. It happens. Well, there it is. Can I end with one thing? Oh, please.
SPEAKER_00:You can end with two. Yes, go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:Uh it goes back to like one of the questions you one of the questions you asked me. Um bringing people together and and and belonging wherever you go. And I had to look up this quote, but it was something in my head along the lines of people don't remember what you say or what you do. They remember how you make them feel. So that was my Angelou, right? Yeah. And I had to I had to look that up. But that I I I didn't realize I carried with me. Is that it it doesn't matter what you do or say, you know, um, it's how you make people feel. And that's an important thing to me is making people feel good, seen, heard, loved. Yeah. Yeah. Included. Included. A part of. Belonging. Yeah. Belonging. Not fitting in, but belonging.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right? There's a there's a difference. Anyway, thank you for having me on here.
SPEAKER_00:This has perfect.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. This is great. This is the part where we I love her.
SPEAKER_00:That was really cool. That was awesome. Super good. Thank you.