Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
Roots And Rackets w/guest Brad Case
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Welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. Thanks for joining me. Today, my special guest, I call all my guests special, because they are. I have, I'm fortunate to have a lot of people in my world that I appreciate knowing and having in my world in different ways. So today it's Brad Case. I'm going to let him introduce himself in a moment, but I'm going to do my shameless plug. My book has been out now for it'll be a year in April. You can get it wherever you buy books locally in Ellensburg at Gerald's or Pearl Street Books. And then you can get it online wherever you buy books. If you want to buy local online, go to Gerald's.com. They'll send it to you in the mail. And this one is for you, my friend. Thank you. Um you haven't read it yet? I have not. Enjoy. I will. Yeah. It's a I call it the short story of the wild ride of my life. Okay. People read it usually in one setting because it's pretty interesting. You know a little bit about me. I do. Um, but um, yeah. And then when you get done, and if you buy it out there, I like to ask a couple questions once you're done. Okay. And you know me pretty well, so it'd be interesting to ask you the question. So that's thank you. Now, so this question is not on the sheets. Okay. Don't worry, it's not a surprise question. Um, he's like he's like, do we get to edit this out at the end with things I didn't mean to say? I'm like, no, you don't. But uh tell the world out there that's listening about you, about Brad Case. Okay. Who are you personally, professionally, what's important to you, blah, blah, blah. Give a little introduction. Got it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Um, well, I grew up in the Edmonds area, just north of Seattle. Um, so I'm a west side, yeah, westside kid, and uh have a younger sister, three and a half years younger than me. Okay. Um where does she live? She lives. Uh it's interesting. She lives her home base, her and her husband and my nephew Oli, they their home base is down in the Manzanita, Oregon area. Oh, along the Oregon coast. My brother-in-law Jeff is a fly fisherman and they own a fly fishing business. And so what they do is they spend um like the school year period of time in Manzanita, and then they own a fishing lodge actually up on the Dean River in British Columbia. And so it's a remote fly-in, you know, it's out in the middle of just the most beautiful, rugged country. Haven't been there. Hope to make it up there this summer. But um, yeah, we're talking grizzly bears on the you know, on the river. It's just yeah, it's it's a it's a I'm not a fly fisherman, but it's it's a it's a location that people will come from around the world to go. To go to. I mean, it's you know kind of like the Yakima.
SPEAKER_00:People don't realize that maybe even more so.
SPEAKER_01:You know, I don't want to say it's more so, but I mean, you know, they got a you know, it's a they have cabins, they got a five-star chef on staff. I mean, it's it's it's a very it's a special place. And so they spend um you know part of the part of the year up there doing that. And so um, and then yeah, my I I grew up and my dad was a a high school P teacher for uh over 40 years in the Seattle School District at Nathan Hill High School. My parents grew up in the Seattle area. So um What part of Seattle? They grew up in the my dad lit grew up a block and a half away from the Woodland Park Zoo. Oh so right now that's a cool area. Oh, great, great neighborhood.
SPEAKER_00:I walked around that area. Me and Sarah went to the Woodland Park Zoo for a show, super cool area. So that's where that's where your dad grew up.
SPEAKER_01:That's where my dad grew up. And my mom, my mom grew up um kind of where Northgate's at along I5. So Northgate basically and I-5 before the free room, and it kind of was her front yard. And so um, but they went to high school together and high school high school sweethearts, and they've been married uh over 60 years and still live in the same house that I grew up in. And wow, and so so yeah, okay. So then yeah, went to um went to Central back in the early 90s, got a degree in leisure services, is what it was called back then. Yep, back then. Was Michelson did you still all classes, yep. So still walking around campus and still, you know, I'd I'd go back and guest lecture in classrooms that I was a student in, which is kind of a surreal feeling.
SPEAKER_00:And was it your plan to be in Ellensburg? No. Because you actually went back to the west side. Yeah, I went back to the west side.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I got a degree in recreation. I knew, you know, growing up in sports and athletics, and I'm sure we'll talk about that a little bit later. I wanted to work, um, I wanted to work with kids, and I wanted to work in a recreation setting where kids didn't, you know, not a school teacher necessarily where kids have to be there. I wanted to be someplace where kids wanted to be. Why didn't you want to be a school teacher? Uh I just I didn't want I I want I I wanted to be a pl work with kids that you know chose to be in a location. Yeah. Okay. You you don't you don't get the choice to be to go to school. Gotta go to school. So I just, you know, and my dad was a teacher, and I didn't necessarily want to, I didn't necessarily want to walk that path. What'd your mom do? She was a stay-at-home mom for most of my childhood.
SPEAKER_00:And then send her my condolences.
SPEAKER_01:As I as I got older, um she started to go, she worked at the schools, elementary schools, and doing part-time work at the elementary schools.
SPEAKER_00:So and then you said your your sister and brother-in-law do the flight. Does your sister fly?
SPEAKER_01:What's her her her job is is is um first and foremost being a mom to Ola, which she's an amazing mom. And then, but she also does a lot of logistical things, managing and handling. Jeff's a dreamer, Jeff is, you know, I mean, and Catherine kind of handles a lot of the other stuff. They're a great couple, a great, you know, they do well. So graduate school. So graduated from central in in leisure services, went back to the west side, didn't really know what I wanted to do. What year did you graduate? Uh I I I spent a lot of time in college. I took my time getting through college. So winter of I think it was like I was like five and a half plus years of school. So winter of 95-ish, somewhere in there, I think I can't really remember. It was a long time ago. Yeah. Um that's my dark years in my book. Yeah. So I went back and uh hung around. Went back to Edmonds. Went back to Edmonds and hung around for about a month, and my dad's like, Are you are we gonna work? What are we gonna do? So I just I actually picked up the phone, the phone book back in that day, and went through and I started calling boys and girls clubs in King County. And I got to the Mercer Island Boys and Girls Club phone number, called them, and they said, Hey, we have a we have a day camp um next week. Why don't you come out and try it out and see if you like it and see if we like you? Mercer Island. Mercer Island. So and I never and I never worked for Boys and Girls. You know, never even really stepped into a boys and girls club before. So I really didn't.
SPEAKER_00:She literally just opened the phone.
SPEAKER_01:I literally opened the phone book and started cold cold calling. Yep. And um my dad had worked for. What was your spiel? Do you remember? Um, just I I I'm a recent graduate of Central Washington University.
SPEAKER_00:Um this is just the internet's just becoming a thing. So we're still doing it old school. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Old school meaning phone call.
SPEAKER_01:You can't look up information. That's nothing. Absolutely no, absolutely nothing. I knew about Mercer Island. My dad was a, you know, in addition to being a P teacher in the summertime, he was a tennis pro to kind of yeah. So he was a tennis pro on the at the Merchant Island Beach Club for for many summers. And so I'd go over to Mercer Island. So when I had familiarity with the island and everything like that. But anyway, so I called them up and they said, Hey, come on out. So I went out and worked there for a week, and at the end of the week, they said, Hey, we we'd like to keep you on part-time. So I started working before school programs, and then, you know, so the kids would get there, they get on a bus, they'd go, and then I'd go home, and then I'd come back and work in the afternoon. I umpired, I worked day. I I basically, you know, if they did what you needed. If they asked me to do something, I did it. You know, even if I didn't fully understand. So that was your first job. That was my first job out of college, correct. Well, hold on. What was your first job ever? My first job ever was actually in the tennis world as well. I was I belonged to a seasonal swim and tennis club in Edmonds. My family did. And I so I grew up playing tennis, and then when I got to kind of late high school, early college, I became a seasonal tennis pro. Oh. So I I was one of the pros at the time. So you're pretty good at tennis? I I I used to be able to play tennis.
SPEAKER_00:You play pickleball?
SPEAKER_01:I I occasionally I do. Okay. And those two translate pretty well. They do. My dad played tennis at the university. Pickleball is just faster, right? Shorter court. A little shorter court, not as much, yeah, not as much running. I mean, you're you're moving a lot, but not long. Yeah. Shorter court. So yeah, it pickleball's a great sport. It's um tennis takes a long time to learn. Um pickleball's fastest. Pickleball you can pick up easier. You can pick up pickleball faster and go out and rally and enjoy it with somebody. Now, to master it, to be good at it, it takes you know, that that that takes something.
SPEAKER_00:But um, but yeah, I grew up playing tennis. Gets a job at Whitby Island. Whit Whitby? No, I mean Mercery. Mercer Island.
SPEAKER_01:How long did you stay there? Um, I stayed there um I probably over a year, and then I started working at the Redmond Club as well. Um, so I was just doing a little bit of everything. How do you get to Ellensburg? Well, let me get to that. Okay. Be patient.
SPEAKER_00:No.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Um, I got a full-time job, uh, then at Arlington Boys and Girls Club working in athletics, and then I I got a full-time job in Edmonds. So that was kind of my progression. So so um, so how do you get back to Ellensburg? Um started a family, had a son. Oh, that so uh on the west side, um, had had our first child, Grady, um, and and or expecting, I was like, you know, living in in in Seattle is great, but not maybe where we want to reach.
SPEAKER_00:So we're 97, 98.
SPEAKER_01:We're we're yeah. No, no, later than that. So we're 99. No, we're in 99, we're 2000.
SPEAKER_00:Where were you working in 2000? Edmunds Boys and Girls Club. So I was working in 2000. I was a manager at the Fred Meyer at um close to CTAC on the Pacific Highway. Yep, yep. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Living in Fremont had a view, had a view of Lake Union and downtown and Gasworks Park is a great place to live. This is toward the end of the yuppie years.com year is coming. Fremont was was still a funky neighborhood and and very different. Not what it is now. Yeah. Um, but anyway, a job opened up at the city of Ellensburg and it was to run the Ellensburg Racket and Recreation Center. I think I uh WRPA web. I don't know how how you heard about it.
SPEAKER_00:Just came across the came. Or saw Ellensburg.
SPEAKER_01:Saw Ellensburg. It actually opened up earlier in the year. I was too late to apply for it, so I wasn't able to. They went through the process, hired somebody, and that person didn't work out, so they reopened actually. They reopened the position. Time period? Um, it would have been early 2001.
SPEAKER_00:What when did you move to Ellensburg?
SPEAKER_01:May. Well, I started working for the city of Ellensburg in May of 2001, and then I moved over here at the end of June, I think. So for a couple months I was commuting back to the city.
SPEAKER_00:So we both have anniversaries coming up. Yeah, maybe because I moved to Ellensburg April of 2001. Yeah, yeah, yeah with Fred Meyer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yep. So that gets you to Ellensburg. So it got so yeah, so I mean a job that that is in recreation and also racket sports. So it just kind of with fit is like this is uh a melding of all my experiences I want to enjoy. So excuse me, came over and ran the Rocket Center for from May of 2001 until early So you weren't the director? No, early 2003. And at the time the director, um Who was it? Scott Archer. Okay, and Scott was here for a few years, and then Scott left for Medford and still is uh one of my you know dearest and closest friends. Um really unfortunate that he left. I was sad that he left, but when he left, I said, Well, I'll I'll apply. And uh was fortunate to to get it, and I'll you know I think early next month will be my 25 years. My 25 25 years with the city, I think 23 years as the director. Is that common? No.
SPEAKER_00:No. Well, is that is what common? Longevity in that role in a city entity.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I think it's it's been more common. I think it's becoming less common. Less common interest for sure. Okay. Um, but it was definitely a fast track for me because I'd only worked for this municipal government for about two years before I got in position, before I was, you know, in that position as a director. So um so yeah, steep learning curve.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, that's how raise your kids in this town. Raise the kids in the town. And I don't want to bramp a source of it, but you were married here and now you guys are not together. Correct. Yeah, you've got a girlfriend now. You're I saw your place downtown, super cool. You went through some life change. Didn't we went through some major life changes?
SPEAKER_01:Yep, yep. And the the kids are now adults, and yeah, uh, our son Grady is in Helena, Montana, graduated from Carroll College a couple years ago, and so he's working working security right now. He and he's gonna get married in this year in July. So that's exciting for them. And then my daughter Lily, she's out of Bowling Green State University in Ohio in the aviation program. And so she is in her last semester right now. And uh pilot or management she's doing aviation management with the with the hope to become a pilot someday. So yeah, so she went out there, she yeah, she can't went out there for aviation and kind of fell in love with the community, pretty similar to Ellensburg. Um and she kind of wanted to get away from from here, and she's been yeah, she's done great. She's she's doing well. So yep. So they're yeah, they're both kind of entering into their next phases and and and and we are as well. So it's yeah, life, yeah, life takes changes, and it yeah, it's it's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_00:But um, so yeah, that's that's pretty good. That's where we're at. Pretty interesting. We so we have some common threads is we moved to Ellensburg almost the same exact time. Yeah. Same amount of time. And I never did you ever think you'd live in Ellensburg? Oh, yeah. Did you think when you moved to you had a young one child? One, and then yep, the same thing.
SPEAKER_01:Was this like this is where we're staying? I think, yeah, certainly during the period of raising kids. I mean, it's like Ellensburg's a is a yeah, we found it to be a wonderful place to raise kids. And uh, you know, then after the kids left, you know, left for college, then that was going to be kind of you know, figuring out where to go from from there. It wasn't you know necessarily the plan to stay here for for a lifetime or you know, and I don't know what the what the future holds, obviously. None of us really do, but you know, once you get over here, you realize that it's a pretty special and unique place.
SPEAKER_00:And we were talking about music, and I have the album Eagles Hotel California. Yeah, it's kind of like Hotel California. I see that so much with people who move from wherever to here, and even natives move and come back. You can come, but you can never leave.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, and I know that you know, people that have left over the course of the years, they're uh you know, more often than not, it they they kind of look back and go, gosh, yeah, we miss it. Yeah, and once you and once you do leave, it's it's kind of hard to in certain niches, it's hard to kind of get your get your football back in the community. So um, yeah. I mean, I've only you know, I've during my tenure with the city, I've applied for for one other job during that entire time. And that was with the city of Edmonds. That's where I grew up. You know, so that's kind of a going home. Obviously, I didn't get the didn't get the job, which was how long ago was that? Oh gosh, I can't remember. We want to say that out loud. It was yesterday. No, no, no, it was not yesterday. It was probably, yeah, now it's probably close to you know 10, 15 years ago. So you're thinking maybe I'll just thinking maybe just kick the tires on something and you know, and it didn't work out, and they hired a wonderful person. And looking back on it, I'm really glad that you know that that opportunity didn't present itself like it, like I may have wanted it to at the time. Uh, but you know, this is we live in a we live in a really a really good place.
SPEAKER_00:And um, so thank you for that introduction. Really good. Um, and this is what we were talking before we started this about what I love about this is I've known you a long time and I just learned a lot about you. Um, so a couple things. Uh one, when I look at leaders who have people under them, one thing you can tell about a leader is how long people stay with them. Sure. And you've had Jody with you and David, yeah, and Katrina only left, not because of you, but to start the preschool. He was with you. You have a lot of people that have stuck with you. Yeah. In a role that maybe people won't. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's yeah, it's cool. Yeah. Recreation is it it's a great, you know, it's a wonderful profession to be in, and and we love coming to work every day. But there there can be some burnout and some challenges associated with that. You work long hours, and you know, it's it's in a public realm. In a public realm, yeah. So, yeah, no, I mean, you know, Jody's been with the city for you know, for many, many years. And longer than you. Yeah, longer. Jody's maybe could be one of our longest tenured city employees as a whole. Yeah. Jody started working at the pool when she was a teenager. Oh, okay. Yeah. She's she grew up in facility. And David. She literally grew up in that facility. Yeah, David's been with us for I think close to 20 years now. And Greg Hall, our park supervisor, and now Caitlin, who came up and trying to and everything. So yeah, we've you know, and but I also think you know that speaks to you know their commitment to the community probably more than anything else, too, and their love for what they do. But pe people will leave if they don't have a strong leader. Yeah, and I think if they have a city leader, yeah. Yeah, and I think you know, we've been we've been blessed during my tenure with the city of Ellensburg, you know, we're on our third city manager during that time. And and uh you know, city managers typically are are last in somewhere probably between five and seven years. And um yeah, so we've had we've had really good leadership at the top, and we've had um uh strong support from our city council. And you know, city council's got a really difficult job, and this last year has been a been a tough one, but um they've been very supportive of parks and recreation in our community. I can probably count on one hand the number of council members during that time that's I'm kind of like uh I'm not really sure where they stand on the on the on the fence with it comes to recreation, but it by and large the council has been extremely supportive. So yeah, and yeah, and I think that you know Ellensburg is just a good place to be, too. So I think, you know, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:I appreciate the yeah, no, seriously. And so you and I, so people know how did I meet this guy? I think it was through email. Correct. Before Katrina, before pre-Katrina. Pre-Katrina Katrina and I knew each other. Katrina was working for me. She was, she was working for you, and I was living in Dogtown, and I had these kids speeding down my street. You did, and so I kind of did my own little investigation, and I noticed they were going to the ball field. Yes, and that's where we kind of met. We did. I remember you were really kind and professional, and yeah, and so that's where we initially met. Yeah, and then me and Katrina started dating.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and yeah, I was like, wait a second, that's the guy that and that's the thing about Ellensburg. I mean, everybody is so connected to everybody else, either they're related or there's some type of rel there's some type of commonality. And so, you know, you always want to be professional and you always want to treat people the right way. That's what we're in the you know, we're here to serve the community. Uh, but there are certain situations that have come up over the years where you're like, boy, I'm glad. Yeah, I'm glad that went well.
SPEAKER_00:Doesn't always happen. Yeah. Super cool. Yep. Here we go. First question. I've known you for about 15 years, yes-ish, right? Yep. And you've spent nearly actually longer, we know that now for sure, 25 plus years just with the city of Ellensburg. That entire time serving this community through parks and recreation. What's kept you committed to that work for so long?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think there's we've already touched on some of the reasons. I think there's the when you've had a career that long, there's multiple reasons behind it. I think first and foremost, um, you know, I love what I do. Okay. Um the reason I got into recreation was I grew up in a in Edmonds, like we talked about, and I played for a sports league called the um Um Snoking Youth Club. Okay. And it was a recreational sports league. But those were really great memories for me. You played with your classmates. You in back then you played all the sports. So you played soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter, baseball in the spring, and then you went and did whatever you did during the summer, as opposed to today, where things are much more specialized, and kids have a tendency. Yeah, they specialize in sports early on and they focus on that and just the one or two. Just the one or two, and they travel and you did them all, but I but everybody did it all back then. There wasn't an option. So but but that organization really shaped me. And and I wanted to, in my professional career, be able to provide those same opportunities for the community that I served in. I wanted, I wanted to give kids the chance to experience something similar that I experienced and and provide that that that opportunity. And so um, so you gotta love what you do. You gotta wanna, you know, some days are harder than others, obviously, but you want to every day you wanna you gotta want to show up to work and do and do what you do. Um, the people that you work with, if you work with, if you surround yourself with good people, they're they're gonna make your job a lot a lot easier, uh, you know, a lot more just doing good things in the community. You know, they make you look good. Um so I've I've been able to surround myself with people that are really good and people that I really enjoy. I mean, you know, people walk through the door. You know, I don't have an employee that walks through the door and I'm like, oh boy, what kind of what kind of mood are they in today? Or what are they, you know, what are we what do we got? You know, they're just every day they're they're excited to serve and and I just genuinely enjoy them. Um the leadership of the organization, you know, you have to you have to you have to enjoy who you work for. Um and that's not only your your immediate supervisor or boss, which in my case is the city manager, but also the community. Um, you know, the community is passionate about parks and recreation, and they will communicate that, you know, during when when things are going good and when things when things are are struggling and they don't like it. And that's you want to work in a community where people feel passionate about it. And and Ellensburg certainly is passionate about uh recreation and and the services that we provide and the facilities that we have in our community. So um, you know, and Kelly says this too, you know, it's not the grass isn't always greener on the other side, it's greener where you water it. And so, you know, I I I think I think you know, being able to, you know, I I get great satisfaction of of going to a city park facility and seeing how it's matured or seeing something that I've built or been a part of building and and or you know, walking the into the grocery store and seeing a kid walking around with a youth basketball jersey on. I mean, I see that and I just smile. And that that kid and that family, they have no idea who I am. 15 years ago, probably probably no, just because my kids were in that, you know, we're younger, and but now it's like they don't know who this person is as you see some weird guy smiling 'em in a grocery store. But I see that and I'm like, okay, that's for me, that's I'm a part of that. That's what it's all about.
unknown:You know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, exactly. And just yeah, I mean, just I think, you know, being able to live and and serve in the same community is is special because you do you see things that uh you You you just you see marks around town that you've are aware of or been a part of, and it's like, okay, that's that's a legacy that you know that nobody needs to know. Very few people know about the connections of who did who's responsible for what, but it's like okay, that feels that feels good. That feels pretty good.
SPEAKER_00:That feels really good. Mine has been launching, you know, my big feather in my cap, the KCRCO, which is now Peers Right. And that's what I'm hearing with you with Parks and Rec is that one going back is that that had an impact on you as a kid, so you wanted to replicate that and make sure that continues. We were um in Fred Meyer uh yesterday, and and I go in, and this guy who I recognize him a little bit, and he's like, Hey, how you doing? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I remember he's like, Thanks for starting, you know, KC RCO. I know it's Pierce, right? He's like, I don't really like that. I'm like, hey, but yeah. But those are the things that we're like, yeah, okay. Yeah. And it's creating connection, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, isn't it? It's creating community, you know. And and I think parks, you know, our world has has changed. And um, you know, the neighborhood that I grew up in Edmonds, we had four blocks of of families and kids, and and every day in the summer or whatever, you you're out, you're out playing, and you're you're doing you're you're from sun up to sundown, you're out, you're out doing things. And you know, you don't see that you don't see that anymore. You know, I used to go and talk to uh classes on campus, and one of the things that I would say is, you know, I've lived in Ellensburg for X number of years, and I've I've never almost ran over a kid in my car. And people look at me like, what a weird thing to say. And I'm like, that happened to me almost on a daily basis when I was growing up because we're outside every day playing in the neighborhood, playing in the streets. You know, now you see a kid walking down the sidewalk, and if they look too young, what's your first thought?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Why are you outside? Why are you outside?
SPEAKER_01:Where are your parents at? What are you doing to call somebody? Do we need to you know it's just it's you know, and and parks have really become kind of that extension to people's front yards or backyards now. Because everything that everything that happens now is organized. You have play dates, you have play dates, everything is you know organized activities and organized sports and things like that. And so parks have really be kind of become that connector, that connector and that extension. And and you know, to to see, you know, and it in some ways it's you know, obviously it's it's wonderful from a per you know from my perspective to see that. On the other hand, it's kind of sad. It's like, you know, that's the only time that we oftentimes get together under those those situations. And and um, but that's just kind of the reality of the world.
SPEAKER_00:I, you know, I appreciate everything you're saying. I walk everywhere, you know that. Anyone that knows me, I walk to campus every day and um I see these kids riding their bicycles to school. There's a group, there's a gang, I call them a gang. Yeah, and I say hi to them because it's so cool because you don't see that as much. Yeah. And my grandson, who's he's 15 now, and he's been raised in Ellensburg for the last few years. And when I hear he's out, you know, walking around town, you think don't get in trouble. But it's cool to hear that. And you know, so I see it a little bit, but I also appreciate your that's so true that now that organized sports are really our front yard and backyard in a lot of ways. That's really interesting. I I I didn't really think of it like that before.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and we get our kids involved, you know, three years old in organized things. Where before, you know, you know, oftentimes you you know, sports-wise, kids wouldn't start playing sports until third, fourth, fifth grade. Be the first organized team they ever played on.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And now if you if you if you wait for third or fourth year, too long. You're way behind that interest. And parents are like, well, I'm you know, my kid's so far behind, I can't. And it's like it's like so sad. It's like, oh my goodness gracious. Do you think it's gotten too competitive? I think it's gotten you're a sports guy? Yeah, no, I am. And and I think I think it is um too organized, too competitive. It's it's it's competitive, but it maybe not it's competitive in I think I think the parents have a lot to do with that because the you know, oftentimes it's the parents that want their that want their kids to be playing at a certain level and they kind of push them into that when maybe they're not ready for it. And you know, once one goes, they all go. You know, so it's it's really it's it's it's an interesting, you know, we have kids, you know, as an example, playing playing youth basketball. They're driving to Yakima in the first or second grade to play on a 10-foot hoop and full court press and two, three zone. And it's like for me, development will only they're not ready for that. You're not gonna take a first first grade kid and put him on a full-size baseball field. So why are you doing that with basketball? So I think that's the trend. I mean, the trend is you know, specialized sports and a little too fast, a little yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's just it's it's a lot. I mean, you know, and I and you're right, I see it's a lot about the parents. Like there's my grandson, uh Lark has uh been playing football and he's pretty good. So I've and I just as a grandfather now, I watch kind of from the 500-yard view or whatever. And I see a lot of the adults in the room really creating these environments where there's a lot of pressure for these kids to do do well, which we want our kids to do well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but at what age? Yeah. And they're broke, I mean, I I coached competitive softball for years, and in the summertime we would spend, you know, nine out of ten weekends traveling and going and playing. But we always encouraged our kids to play other sports, you know. Softball was for a certain period of time, but you know, go play the volleyball and soccer and the basketball and do the other things. And you know, that that that could you have different friend groups. I mean, just it makes you a better, yeah, better person. And and you know, you're around the same group for nine, ten weeks. It's like you kind of need a break a little bit. You know, so I think it's just it's just what it is. It's just kind of uh it's yeah, I I I I don't know. We we we we sit around and talk about it a lot, and there's no there's there's some benefit. I mean, there's some you know some great memories associated with those types of things.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's a balance. There needs to be a balance. Yeah, that's my view in everything in life.
SPEAKER_01:I just love to see kids just go out and play and be creative and make up their own rules. And yeah, because when you when you when you don't have parents or you don't have adults that are kind of guiding everything, kids learn how to troubleshoot. They learn how to do things on their own rather than looking at mom or dad or the coach to always intervene and try to fix things. Growing up, if you just went out and played with a group of kids, you learned, you learned how to get along, you learn how to negotiate, you learn how to you know problem solve, you learn how, you know, there are so many life lessons that come with play when people are given the opportunity to find out and use it and fail and succeed. Now we're just we're just always there as parents, and we don't give that, I don't feel like we don't give that latitude and grace enough for failure. We learn more from failure than we do success.
SPEAKER_00:We do.
SPEAKER_01:So, and and as a parent, I've been guilty of that as well. I mean, I I'm certainly not, you know, not without fault, but you know, looking back now and kind of having the perspective of my kids being a little bit, it's like, gosh, I wish I would have attacked this a little bit differently.
SPEAKER_00:Good. I want to see it because I want to ask you a question. Uh let's I want to ask you this. What's been your highlight of your career? Yeah. You're the one that you're like like mine and just working with people and the community has been the KCRCLS. I did that. Yeah. What's been your highlight and what's been your biggest challenge when you think about your time and your yeah?
SPEAKER_01:I think um I think highlight, I mean, project-wise, from uh from a highlight perspective, obviously, you know, um opening Unity Park downtown was a was a big one. That was a long process interrupted by COVID. Um we're still early on in the in the park's life, but I think it's gonna be something that is going to be, you know, a staple in our downtown for for decades to come. And I was down at Ace Hardware yesterday and I was leaving and I looked over and I saw a little Seahawk rally taking place in the in the you know, it was before the it was before the the event actually started. So people were people were gathered, people were in the gathering process. But you know, just to look over and go, okay, there's a place for people to go and enjoy that. Um I think you know the the highlight for me too. I mean, you know, the development of Rotary Park has been significant and you know, and selfishly, you know, I've spent, you know, my my son participated in sports, but on a much on a recreational level, enjoyed it because he enjoyed being with friends. My daughter was a little more competitive when it came to the basketball and softball. So a lot of a lot of those memories are tied to Rotary Park. Um personal and the professional side. Personal and the professional side of it, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00:It's been the biggest challenge. Um or what's kept you awake at night?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um during certain years, the budget would keep me awake at night. But I think I think um you know, we've had some we've had some facilities that have, you know, we lost the Rocket Center in a fire. Oh yeah. That was difficult. Arson, too. Arson, yeah. That was a difficult one. That was heavily used.
SPEAKER_00:Even though it was aged, it had its issues.
SPEAKER_01:It had its issues. I remember going there a couple times. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I think the biggest challenge is um honestly. I mean, we love our jobs, but I think, you know, to some degree, it's like trying to stay fresh, trying to stay new, trying, you know, trying to a lot of the I I'm going through a challenge right now. I mean, there's a lot of change happening at the city and the process of which we're doing things, and you know, I've been doing it for a long time, and those things are changing. So you know, I have to I have to really pick myself up and and be willing to, you know, and and the the changes that we're going through are good things, but yeah, it's still it's change. It's change and it's hard. And so um, you know, I've been fortunate. We've we've had, you know, we've had a lot of successes in our department, and we've had you know, we've had a few situations where we look back and go, you know, three-part situation was unfortunate with the master planning just because of the the the divide it kind of created in our community. And you hate to you hate to see see neighbor, you know, pitted versus neighbor. And that's kind of that's kind of what happened. And there were things that we could have done along the way to to to to mitigate that a little bit. And you know, we we didn't want to get, you know, we go through a public process, that's the goal is not to not to have that end result, and we still had it. And so that was that was unfortunate. That was hard. Yep, yeah, yeah. But you know, I think you you learn from those experiences and you have takeaways, and you know, the next time you you do something, you do it differently. Yeah, you know, and that's if you're if you're out there doing stuff and you're you know, you're trying to move the needle forward, you're gonna have failures.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:When you sit back and you just kind of let things stay stagnant.
SPEAKER_00:You know, this is from my vantage point, having lived here for 25 years, and I get it that you know, there's change is hard, just in general, change is hard.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, with the repark or with when I hear people talking about the pool and all that, yeah, you know, I think it's important for community members to be involved, right? Because I'm here's one of my I complain. Yeah. If I'm gonna complain, I need to either have a solution or get involved and affect change, right? And so if you're a community member out there and you're just complaining, but you're not doing anything to help affect that change, then I'm probably not gonna listen to you. That's my viewpoint, yeah. But I think in your position, that's probably been tough from a lot of different angles.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I I mean I I respect the fact that when you do have an issue, what do you do? You walk up to my office and you sit down and you say, Yeah, I got a problem with this, or I don't agree with this, and you and we have that conversation. And and there's not a lot, you know. I wish more of that would would happen. And that doesn't necessarily mean that whatever you want or whatever you think is gonna change immediately, but you know, you at least you've had the opportunity to to share it and and I've had the opportunity to hear it. Um, you know, now it's it's pretty easy to just go on a keyboard, to go on a keyboard, or or to to you know, to to bifurcate that process. And just just kind of, you know, it's like you know, to have that conversation. You know, I mean my office is on the second floor of City Hall, and when you turn the corner, I'm sitting right there. Yeah. And I can't if I wanted to escape from you, which I don't, I wouldn't even have that option. So it's like, you know, just come and talk to me and have that conversation. And and most of the time that you know, when I've had those opportunities, the individual that's come in has walked away feeling hurt, feeling better about it. Yeah, you know, they may not like it exactly, but they feel better about it and and so do I. Yeah, and then if you know we have that conversation and you go and you want to talk to somebody else about it, by all means. But yeah, yeah, but but again, they also you know working in the public sector, you yeah, you have the right to go talk to whoever you want to go talk to. And I I respect that and I appreciate that and I understand that, but it's always kind of like it's nice to it's always nice to have that conversation because I think you can cut down a lot of it with just going to the source, going to the source, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So all right, let's do another question. Working in parks and recreation. I didn't ask this one yet, right? Yep. I don't I don't know. I'll let you know if you listen. I want to go to this one, yeah. Because uh yeah, you're a father and a pretty avid sports guy, in my view. Yep, I might be wrong, but I think you are. Yeah, how have sports and recreation shaped the way you think about teamwork, discipline, and raising kids? Got it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I would say um more from a coaching sports perspective, maybe than than anything else. Um, I think sports are are kind of a microcosm of of life. You know, you learn, you know, you learn hard work and you learn consistency and you learn um, you know, the life movie isn't always fair that you're gonna that you're gonna have failure. You're gonna lose, you might win. And it's not gonna be, you know, when I coach softball, you know, softball's a game of failure, you know, baseball's a game of failure. If you yeah, if you bet if you get a hit three times out of ten, you're a hall of famer.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah. But you're failing. You know, so um some of my favorite quotes are from Michael Jordan. He talks about that reality. He was sent to the free throw line in so many games and missed. Yeah. But he doesn't get up the next day and go, I'm a failure. He gets up the next day and keeps going. Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01:So I mean, I think through through sports, you can you can learn a lot. And I think, you know, sports are you know, sports are at its core fun. That's what they should be. Yeah. Should be enjoyable, they should be fun. Um, you know, life should be fun. Yeah. You know, life, yeah, you need to have discipline in sports, you need to have discipline, you know, parenting and and you you need to instill discipline and you need to steal structure and you need to instill, you know, backup plans. And you know, I mean, there's everything that you you do when you are coaching, uh you you use those same uh kind of uh approaches to being a parent. And and I think also, you know, being a parent should be fun. You know, you want to give your kids a a good life and you're and and and have and have good experiences and memories. And so um, you know, I think there's I think they're they're very they're very transferable. Um you know, and if you get if you get out of skew with either one of those, um, it has a negative impact on the people that you that you that you touch. And so um so yeah, I mean I think there's always you know drawn parallels to to you know and I grew up in a I grew up in a sports family too, you know, and I grew up Seattle sports fan, which is you know one of the most difficult things that you can experience. Anybody can go hawks go hawks, yeah. Yeah, but um journey. But yeah, no, I think there's yeah, there's a lot of similarities to to to to sports in particular and and and and raising kids.
SPEAKER_00:So how would either of your kids describe you as a dad growing up?
SPEAKER_01:Um I think uh I had uh you know probably two very different experiences with my kids because um you know Grady's involved Grady was a band kid. Yeah, he was, did um did theater, ran cross country, played soccer, um, big into gaming. You know, the activities that that Grady um participates in are were much different than what I had kind of in. So um, you know, the kid has just got the the biggest heart ever and uh not a sarcastic bone in his body. And just I is like, how in the world am I your did you did you come from from my DNA? It's it's really interesting. So um, yeah, I hope that both kids would say that that I was a supportive dad and that I you know took care of my family and and uh you know advocated for them and and and um spent time together and you know just had a had somebody who knew that you know I mean I was there. I mean Rachel's a an amazing mom. Um you know, they couldn't have been had a better mom to raise those kids. And um, you know, Lily I coach, Lily would probably say that I'm tough, you know, because as a coach, you know, when you're coaching your own kid, you have a tendency to either be the the tough coach or let your kid do whatever they want and run the and I had a tendency to be the tough coach and and make the example. And I really wish that you know I hadn't done that. Um looking back, it's like I wish I would have been, you know, this past this past fall I went out and visited her at college and um and I brought brought my glove and she has her bat back there, and you know, and we went out and I threw her through a batting practice. Okay. And she hasn't picked up a bat in years, but she just picked it up and she just amazingly really talented. And what does that feel like to have that happen? It was amazing. It was amazing to be out there and not have no pressure, not a care in the world. I mean, at no point did I say, hey, you know, you gotta your hands are gotta be you know feel the need to crack. Didn't feel yeah, and it's like and it was just like kind of a you know another one of those full circle moments where it's like, you know, this is this is special, this is cool.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think you and I have a similar, you know, just thinking about what you said about you wish you maybe would have been a different type of coach. I have that same, I wasn't a coach to my son, but you know, I was a pretty strict dad in some ways. Um and I wish I would have been a little softer. Yeah, you know, yeah. But now me and you know, me and Tyler have a strong relationship and and it's um so yeah, we evolve, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01:And you can always ramp, I mean, you know, you can always ramp it up. You know, sometimes when you start, you start, it's hard to start here and then yeah and then come back down. And I think there are you know, there are times and you know, Mike the grew the kids were yeah, very great, just great kids, you know. They weren't, you know, to the best of our knowledge, out running around doing things. You know, I almost wish it was like, hey, go out and yeah, go out and live, go out and live a little more. You know, they're COVID pro you know, they were yeah in high school when COVID hit, so that kind of impacted things, but you know, just uh you you couldn't ask for, I guess, easier kids to raise.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, just really well and I I think that goes to parenting. You know, I I I've admired you and Rachel from afar as parents and community members, and and I knew that you know the kids were involved in their different things, and and that goes to you too. Yeah, you know, allowing that to happen, creating the space for that to happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Good.
SPEAKER_00:All right. You are one question away from being to our final question. Okay. Okay. So the pressure's coming off a little bit. Okay. Public service work can be demanding and often goes unnoticed. You've actually said that a different way as we've talked about this. Uh, what helps you stay grounded and motivated in a role that's more about consistency than spotlight? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think I'm kind of predisposed for the consistency piece of it and kind of where does that come from? I think my upbringing, your your parents. My parents, I mean.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, I wanted to ask you. So your mom and dad, two kids. Yep. Was that your plan? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, I think there was married, gonna have a couple kids, maybe three, but then you know, when you had a boy and a girl, and things were it's like, hey, this is this is pretty good. So yeah, no. So yeah. So I mean, I think, you know, growing growing up in a you know you grew up in a consistent structure.
SPEAKER_00:In a routine structure, my dad Katrina did the same.
SPEAKER_01:My dad's car had over 300,000 miles on it, and you never went out and Toyota Honda as a Toyota, yeah, Toyota Corona Toyota Corona. Um, but you just never, you know, I was never one to chase the the fancy bright object. And you know, just very I like stability. Do you use a risk taker? No, not at all.
SPEAKER_00:Not like, hey, this is crazy, but I'm gonna go try it. Opposite.
SPEAKER_01:So not I'm not kind of a little different. Yeah. And so obviously, with some of the events of my life in the last year and a half, very different. So you know, so big, big change. But but no, very consistent, very, you know. So for me, the consistent grind of what I do is to me that's familiar safe and kind of comfortable. Exactly. And and I have to push myself to kind of get outside, get outside of my comfort zone. And I think, you know, and and municipal government kind of is this kind of risk for you? This was a big risk. When I sent you the message, what'd you think at first? Well, but let's back up. I told you first of all, I told you I'd be on your show. Oh, you did. So you committed. I just told you at the I saw you downtown. I said, hey, if you look need a guess, I'll do it. I did. I did. So for me, that was a big jump. Okay. Because because, you know, for the last year and a half, kind of you've been doing something. So that gives you but but I've also been kind of, you know, you kind of go into a not you kind of go into a different mode, you know. You're not, you know, maybe out in public as much. And yeah, things change, especially being in a small community. You know, you don't know around the corner who's waiting for you necessarily. And you know there may be people out there that think different of me today than they did five years ago. Probably. Which I totally get. And so you kind of you kind of put yourself not in the you just kind of uh almost like a little self preservation mode is kind of what I did, you know. And um and so now, you know, coming out and talking and knowing that we're gonna talk about things that may be uncomfortable and that you know, people may be watching that might look at you different. differently. So it's you know this was a big this was a big leap and there's been lots of big leaps in the last couple years.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, I mean I think you know you just kind of realize it's been the scariest thing you've done in the last year and a half that you're now going, oh I'm glad I did it.
SPEAKER_01:I think just making the decisions that I made to to put myself in the position that I'm in today.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Well I like Brad today. Yeah I liked Brad yesterday. Yeah no I I'm glad you do and I appreciate I appreciate that and you know you have to sometimes in life you have to make really difficult decisions and life is short and you have to you have to be you know you have to be able to look in the mirror every morning and and and and like who you see and be excited for the day. And um and I'm in an you know I I'm some days are hard you know but but there are more good days than bad and I've got a you know a different support system around me than I had before but still a wonderful one and and and I'm really yeah I'm I'm enjoying I'm enjoying life and yeah I certainly haven't you know haven't haven't always made you know looking back on some things yeah probably changed some things you know in probably in hindsight being 2020 it's like yeah I wish I would have done that different or but you know I'm I'm in the place where I'm at and I need to I need to be I need to be okay with that and you know part of that is you know is this is having is having the opportunity to come and talk to you and and kind of be in the public is you know walking into the grocery store five years ago ten years ago I I knew absolutely everybody you know you couldn't you know my parents would come over and we'd go downtown or walk around and it's like my God is there anybody in this town that you don't know you know and it's like well it goes there maybe a couple but you know now it's like you know you're kind of you know it's just it's different. The kids are you know your your circles change as the kids get older and your life circumstances change and so those circles change. And so yeah just being adapting and and meeting new people and doing new things and just you know really trying to enjoy life and and not afraid to be crazy and I've always been kind of reserved and you know kind of yeah but now it's you know I I'm being forced I'm being forced out of my comfort zone a lot more and and it's good and it's good and you realize you know it's a yeah it's not the end of the world.
SPEAKER_00:And you know some people may look at you like yeah okay who do you think you are and it's like well that's fine and I respect I am who I am and and you know listen so I want to share a couple of things one the the liking um familiarity and structure and consistency I have learned you know you'll read my book and you know a little bit of my story. I used to live a life of complete chaos never knowing what was coming next that's how I was raised. Yeah you and Katrina were raised in similar environments. Her parents have been together forever they lived in the same house and I've grown to really appreciate yeah I've grown to really like knowing what's coming. Normalcy right consistency. Yeah and that's boring it's kind of boring yeah yeah but then I go oh no this is okay yeah that I don't have to be chasing the next thing I don't have to be you know this this craziness but also I like to force myself like you've done the last year and a half you see me take risk and it's scary and you know what sometimes people aren't gonna like us. But if I'm being a good human and I'm doing what I need to do to take care of David and what I think will help the world I'm okay with that. I'm not like there's part of me that struggles with that like oh God did I upset someone or something. Ah because here's what you said it and you know I'm turning 59 this year. Life is short. Yeah and I my overall goal and I think you are similar in this way in your own way is to help people see that they have it within them to do amazing things. That's my goal. Everything I do like this and all this crazy stuff David does that's my goal. Yours if I were to say yours is to help kids grow into being great adults right and how do you do that through parks and rec and all the things you do like you have great kids who are turning into their good young adults now. Yeah you did that did you make mistakes absolutely yeah you know so I appreciate you you sharing what you shared. Thank you. Yeah and you and I have chatted offline you know and I've appreciated what you've said to me and just how you've supported we haven't even talked about how you were Katrina's boss for a lot of years. Yeah and I'll never forget this when she she got the award up in Shillan and you wrote the speech and you said you know Katrina works with the population that complains right elderly and she I think you had said she had gotten one complaint in over 10 years. You you lift people up yeah thank you you provide a space that helps people grow and learn and and I really appreciate it. Thank you. We're gonna close this up but we have two closing questions. So this is your opportunity to if someone gets through all of this and they get to the end and and they want a message of hope so what's a message of hope or encouragement you'd offer to someone listening who's trying to find their own place or purpose in the community I guess I think they're probably already doing that.
SPEAKER_01:And they may not they may not even know it. I had an interaction with Kevin Kevin you know Kevin Kevin been around for years. Kevin's awesome Kevin's awesome yeah and I he was at City Hall the other day and I sat down next to him and I asked him I said how's it going Kevin and he's and he's like oh I'm I'm struggling a little bit and I said well what what do you got going on? And he goes well I just I don't know what I don't know what my purpose is here really you know I feel like I should be doing more for the community I'm not doing you know I'm not doing enough and I just feel and I and I looked at him I said well Kevin every time I see you you make me smile yeah and I love talking to you and I know that when I when I when I see you I'm gonna be greeted with a big smile and hello Brad how are you doing and you know you you bring you bring joy to my life yeah and I know you bring joy to a lot of other people and he goes you know I've been told that yeah so you're yeah you're doing it you're doing it um you know and I so I think you know I think just really the word of hope is you know we all I think we all look at things that we could be doing or should be doing um maybe a recognition maybe we are and maybe just maybe just that general recognition sitting back and you know what what are you doing and and taking a closer look at that. And um you know again yeah we're never as good as we think we are and we're never as bad as we think we are um but I think you know I think we we're oftentimes our own worst critic. Yeah so I think I I think that's it just just looking at yourself a little closer.
SPEAKER_00:Recognizing that you probably are doing something. Yeah maybe you can grow from there. Yeah and the things that you're doing you may not you may not get the feedback you may not you know there's some things where you know you get immediate feedback benefit you know it may be years down the road that whatever you're doing somebody may come up and say you made a big difference in my life you know you're probably doing it yeah probably doing it already I like that I like that you brought Kevin's awesome I see him usually a few times a week walking to campus and me and Katrina just saw him driving down the road and he's you know always got a wave and and Kevin has a great memory like Kevin knows he's a wealth of knowledge for our community and I've enjoyed watching him and him his his health improve and his journey yeah yeah yeah yeah super cool so no let's okay this is it okay what's a question this is where I get a little nervous and you've got me nervous okay what's a question you've always wanted to ask me okay all right well I've been I've been I thought about this a little bit I don't you know you don't throw me very many softballs so I'm not gonna yeah I'm not gonna throw you a softball on this one um so your your journey your history your your story to get where you're at is is an amazing one and obviously it's it's shaped who you are today you know do you ever see yourself in the future kind of being able to would you put that behind you and solely focus on kind of what's in front of you one thing that that Kelly and I talked about a lot is we kind of we kind of use the analogy of you know you have the rear view mirror that's small and then you have the the window in front yeah looking at that front window that's big rather than looking at that that that tiny one that's you know and I know that you know all of our past shape who we are today it's for some more than others but do you see do you see that for you? So my immediate response is I believe I do that now. Yep. What I talk about like I'm looking at my book you know that book is the story of my life and it's really a a pretty raw view of my past right so what what I say to people and I try to do with myself is you know your past is your past you can't do anything about it. Yeah right so leave it there. And I'm all about you know me and Katrina are all about doing today and and looking forward what can I do to the future yeah so you know creating the KCRCO which is now Piers Rising that is a part of that. Yeah it's creating a space where people who can come in and have a nice welcoming space to improve their life right will I ever be able to just completely leave the past in the past for me I think it's fuel for me to continue moving forward. Yeah right yeah like I don't live in the past yeah you know I don't you know I don't know yeah I just I think for me because my past has shaped who I am so much that I'll never really completely let it go. Yeah. And you know we can go this can be a whole different conversation about mental health and you know will I ever not have anxiety or worry at some level what I've what I've accepted is that that's probably no I'm gonna have it but I've learned tools and skills to be able to manage it so that I can be happy on most days. So yeah um I don't know if that answers your question clearly um will I ever completely not look in the rear view mirror? No I don't I don't think so yeah you know next month is my recovery anniversary month and for me that's a month where I I kind of you know take a peek in the rear view mirror. Yeah I always want to be improving. Yeah I always want to be you know doing something to improve my life and others' lives. So I'm I view myself as a forward thinking person. With that said that forward thinking comes from what I've experienced. Yeah yeah yeah good well I appreciate you yeah and I always I always have and um there's been times where I like okay I gotta I gotta mute David Douglas on this you're probably not the I you know a year ago probably it's like when I you know when things were starting to change in my you know your little daily your little daily messages I mean some days those hit a lot closer to home than others and I've and I've grown to really appreciate that and that's something that you're doing from afar that you don't you don't know it has that impact but it but it does and it gives me you know it gives me hope it gives me pause for you know thought and and reflection and it you know so I I value you yeah part of for men specifically my like what I do I know I'm very public I'm very like we're out there like the fact that all of Ellensburg knows we have a new dog is not a shock to anyone right because that's that's who I am but also specifically for men I I want men to feel like we can be men and be real. Yeah exactly you know we're we're in the year 2026 and we still have this raw tough guy it's even it's actually the pendulum has swung and it's like oh my God shocker that we have massive mental health issues and suicide among men is like I want to provide a space where men can feel authentic. Kind of vulnerable yeah yeah like you know so yeah there that's also part of it too with that past and present and future yeah um because I've had men reach out to me and go thank you for sharing what you shared I'm not there but I appreciate what you're doing. Okay well that that gives me fuel to keep doing it. Yeah so yeah this has been great it's good stuff thank you for joining me appreciate it so