When Treatment Fails: A mother's Fight for Accountability w/guest Mandy Hamlin

A brochure promised safety. What Mandy’s family found after Cooper’s overdose was a six‑bedroom house at the end of a cul‑de‑sac—advertised as inpatient treatment, billing thousands per day, and operating with shocking gaps in oversight. We invited Mandy to tell the whole story: the love and laughter of a blended family, the day the phone rang with news no parent should hear, and the quiet, stubborn ways she learned to keep going without letting grief harden her.

Together we pull back the curtain on an industry too often protected by stigma and secrecy. Mandy shares how state investigators documented nine deficiencies around Cooper’s death—missed checks, loose access, confidentiality breaches—followed by a fine that would insult any parent. We talk about why predatory rehab models target private insurance, how families with fewer resources face even steeper odds, and what real accountability could look like: a national, public rating system for licensed addiction treatment providers, youth‑specific and trauma‑informed care, smaller caseloads, and approvals tied to evidence rather than billing codes. If you pay premiums or taxes, you have skin in this game—and power to demand better.

This conversation is also a guide for showing up. Mandy spells out what helped in the first six months, what to avoid saying, and why the simplest acts—printing photos, a “thinking of you” text, washing a sink of dishes—carry the most weight. She makes a case for vulnerability over image, for community as oxygen, and for choosing joy as a tribute, not a betrayal. If you’re a parent, partner, or friend searching for a way forward, or a policymaker deciding where standards begin, you’ll hear both urgency and hope here.

If this moved you, follow the show, share this episode with someone who needs it, and leave a review with one change you believe would make treatment safer. Your voice helps push real reform.

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Transcript

Welcome And Mandy’s Story

SPEAKER_02 0:09

You ready to get started? Yeah. Okay, welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. I'm glad you're here. I have another special guest. I always say this every episode special guest. All my guests are special. You're certainly special to me in our own unique walk in life. We're going to talk a lot about that. But I appreciate you and love you. So Mandy Hamlin is here with me. And yeah, so what I'd like to start with is, and this isn't a question on there. And we kind of did this a little bit downstairs. I kind of have this, but tell the world about you. Who are you? What do you do in your life? Where, who's your family, whatever you want to share or not share professionally. You know, I I have a uh inkling that this episode will get lots of views. So let's start with who Mandy is.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Um well, primarily I am a mom and a wife uh and a daughter. And um I've was born and raised here in Ellensburg.

Career Beginnings In Insurance

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

And um I've spent my entire professional career working in the insurance industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Um that's where we met.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Yeah. Was when you were with Allstate out by McDonald's. You had an office there.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

I had an agency. I remember sold that. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, and then I now I'm a I'm a district sales leader for another kind another carrier, and um, and I love it. And it's been super fun for me to How'd you end up in the insurance industry? Okay, so I actually bought my so I was married before uh Wade, and my husband and I had bought some snowmobiles, and I went to go get some insurance, and it was just so crazy expensive. So I went to the local state farm office and I was just in there, got a quote for everything.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Downtown.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Yeah. And Kathy Harris, who is was my mentor and Scott Rollins, they were my mentors. But Kathy Harris said, Are you looking for a job? And I actually worked at the hospital that time. I was I I typed medical transcription for the imaging department.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Yeah, you're going old school, aren't you? Yeah, I listened. What do they call it?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Short no, not shorthand.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I just actually I literally typed.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

So you'd listen to the radiologist and you'd type it out. And then this wasn't shorthand.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

You are actually how many words a minute can you do?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I mean, I don't know. It was a lot, but probably did a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Okay, so we're doing that. So we're going to have this conversation about snowmobile insurance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

And she's like, you know, I I must have been maybe it was my personality, because you know, I'm kind of interactive, like right?

SPEAKER_01 2:40

Like a little bit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

So and so she said, you know, we're hiring. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Are we talking?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

So that would have been in 98.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

98, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Yeah. Uh 99.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

And so I uh I did that. I applied for the job and I got hired and I treated it like a job. And one day I must have been being real crappy at what I was doing, which is highly likely because I'm in my 20s, right? And in your 20s, you're still learning how to maneuver life. And Kathy said to me one day, hey man, are you gonna treat this like a job or are you gonna treat it like a career? And I was very angry. Oh, and I left there and I felt You left meaning you quit? No, I left that day after work. After work, I cut off.

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Picture and you come out of here.

SPEAKER_00 3:29

No, I didn't do that. Uh I left there feeling very angry. Like I couldn't believe she said that to me.

SPEAKER_02 3:34

I was like, just like how dare she rude. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

And I went home that night and I probably cried. And then I thought along and hard about it, and I thought, I'm gonna I'm gonna show her.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

And I wanted to be the first on the phones and I wanted to do all these things, right? And I was gonna show her. And then I realized, oh, this is actually really fun, and I'm enjoying this. And so she got me. And it worked really well. And I that was did that was just started my whole career. Okay. Started my whole career. And you've been doing long.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yep. Opened an agency.

SPEAKER_02 4:04

So tell me about your family. So you you and you and Wade are a blended family.

SPEAKER_00 4:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

No kids together?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

No children together.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Tell me about your family.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Um, so I my first time I got married, I we I got married real young. It was like the next step. You know, you have a couple kids. Yeah. Um, and then it was like, ooh, okay, well, maybe we're growing apart. So we got divorced. I was single for quite a little while. Okay. Uh met Wade, single? Um, four years.

unknown 4:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah, three and a half, four years. Met Wade, and I didn't really, I kind of was like tough girl, like, oh, okay, whatever. We'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Like you've been single for a while, single mom, independent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

And uh one.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Wade had to do some work.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Well, you know, he didn't really. Okay. He I thought he was super cool. I'll tell you this. You'll appreciate this because you're a motorcycle guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Yeah. He I was like you guys ride, don't you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

So this was where I decided he could be my boyfriend, and he's gonna die when I tell this guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

I hope he's watching.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

It was during my I had to go to a um a field trip for Riley. That's our oldest, my oldest daughter, and I'd followed the bus over in my car, and I was at the top of the pass, and he knew we were doing that, and he had to go to Seattle for something. Well, he had rode his Harley over that day. And I'm just sitting there talking to all the moms, doot doo doo doo. And this dude rolls in on this black Harley and he comes like wheeling in.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Oh, yeah. Everyone's looking.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

And he pulls up between me and my friend, and and uh, and I'm like, whoa, you know, like what the like you don't recognize him, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

And he takes his shades off, he's like, Hey, and I'm like, oh boy, good work wig.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

And then when he left, uh my friend Robin says, Who's that? I'm like, Well, that's my new boyfriend.

Blended Family And Meeting Wade

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Oh my gosh. So he didn't even know yet. He became official, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

It's my new boyfriend. So uh yeah, but how long ago was that? We just celebrated our 16th wedding anniversary.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

So uh about 18 years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's it's been great.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

So kids?

SPEAKER_00 6:01

Yep, we have three. So Riley is our oldest, she's 27, she's a mom, and uh, so we have three little beautiful granddaughters. Oh, good. Uh, she has a wonderful partner, his name's Austin, so that's fantastic. And then um They live here? No, they live in Prosser. Prosser. He's a lineman and he works for down there, and that's where the response time is. And he grew up down there and stuff. And so yeah, they they just had a real nice house time there. They're they're really enjoying life down there. And then um Hunter, who is uh 23. Okay, and he is just fun, just like learning life, like still doing all the things 23 year olds do, and you're just like, dude, why'd you do that? They always say hello, and you're like, okay, cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I was like, just having fun. I know.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

I'm like, I'm like, oh damn, don't have so much fun. Okay, lives here, yeah, lives here, works for Wade.

SPEAKER_02 6:51

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

And then of course we have Cooper, and um, he he uh is because blend family, he'd be 23. He passed away when he was 20.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

So yeah. It's been three years.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah, just about three years. It'll be three years on the 26th of March.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Does that seem about right? Does it seem longer or shorter?

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Well, it kind of depends on the day.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

So sometimes it's like, man, I haven't talked to him so long. And then some days it's like it just happened, right? So um, but I think the cool thing about grief is that it ebb and flows. So the days that are bad are just they're not bad forever, right? They're a moment, yeah. And you know that and work through it.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, yeah. So three kids. Three kids married 16 together, 18. Me and Katrina kind of right behind you guys in that trajectory there. Um uh no kids together. Nope. Um, so Wade are one of the kids his?

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Hunter.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Hunter, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So the girl and so Riley and Cooper are mine and Mark's.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Yours, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And um, and then he was old were they when you guys got together?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

They're kids.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah. So the boys were like three, four. Yeah, actually more like four-ish. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah. And Riley was older, obviously, because she's older than them, and she put way through hell because you know, you're not my dad.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

She wasn't mean to him, but she just was a little harder on him.

SPEAKER_00 8:21

Yeah, okay. And uh, but they have a very close special relationship.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

And you don't have to answer this, but uh are the are do you guys all talk to the the exes?

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Oh yeah, we get along good. Okay, so we actually don't have a strong relationship with Wade's ex-wife. It's she doesn't live here, she has a different life. Yeah, but um, you know, I made a decision when I got a divorce that just because Mark and I couldn't be together, I wasn't gonna make my kids feel bad about that. And I couldn't ever say anything bad about Wade and I have never said bad things about the other parents, even if they piss you off, which is super cool, right? That you get on each other's nerves. Sure, sure. Because if you didn't, you'd still be married, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

I always say, yeah, there's a reason people got married.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

So, you know, we get on each other's nerves. And um, I never wanted my kids, they're half of that person. I never wanted them to feel bad about that. And so um, it's not their fault that Mark and I couldn't stay married. We're actually really good friends. I would consider his wife one of my closest friends. Um, we spend a lot of time together, we get to do holidays together, and it's really special because my kids don't have to pick.

Kids, Grandkids, And Co‑Parenting Well

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Yeah, and isn't that a powerful message to kids that are grow up to be adults to see that that positive behavior?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, because you know, when Riley was having her babies, she didn't have to think, Oh, should I have my mom or my dad come? Yeah. Or when we did high school graduations or birthday parties. It wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Who do I invite? Yeah. What time are they gonna come? Oh god, do I gotta manage the conflict? Oh boy.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Yes. So that was never, that was never our we just didn't want that for our kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

I worked in the wret wedding industry for years and I heard a lot of that. Like, oh, the in-laws are coming or the or my my mom's ex-husband, and how do we memorize her? Oh wow, how about we just act like adults?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, exactly. Like who love your kids more than you dislike your ex.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:11

Like it's not that hard. Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_02 10:14

So born and raised in Ellensburg.

unknown 10:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

How far back does your family go in Ellensburg?

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Gosh.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Um and your maiden name is Rab. Rab, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Uh-huh. And my my mom was raised here. She actually graduated from Thorpe. Um, my her parents were from, like her my grandma was from Minnesota, and my grandpa was from Oklahoma. And then my dad, interestingly enough, was uh is from New Jersey. And what happened was he joined the army.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Uh, which is really cool because after this, we're gonna do he gets his quilt of valor.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Oh, so cool. Yeah, that's a great thing. Yes, good for him.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

So, yeah, so anyway, um, he was on the East Coast and he got stationed at Fort Lewis.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Okay. And how does he find Ellensburg?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Well, my uncle is in the military.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

And he comes, um, he comes home on leave, like because you know, like on break or whatever, Easter. I don't know what it was for. I think it was Easter because of the m story fits my memory right. But um, anyway, he just showed up and my mom thought, you know, he talked funny and you know, and whatever. He was just like a little too jazzy or something. And uh he had told my uncle, I'm gonna marry your sister. And my uncle's like, Oh, okay. And then like six months later, they were engaged.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

Wow. Yeah, super cool. Here in Allensburg.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

Yeah, and they got married, and they I think they had their wedding wedding reception at the um Fairview Grange. Grange, yeah, right? Yeah, still there. Yeah, yeah, and uh cool, and so yeah, and they you live out that way.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

No, Fairview's the other side. I was thinking of my next steps. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing all that. That's really cool. And one of the cool things about hosting these is I get to learn uh more about friends that you already kind of know about. So that's that's really cool. And I really appreciate you talking about parenting with blended families and and making a decision as a mom that hey, just because me and the dad couldn't get along doesn't mean I have to put that on the kids.

SPEAKER_05 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Um, me and Tyler's mom, his mom has passed, but you know, we kind of made that decision too. We we weren't together um most of his life, six months we had had a divorce, and I say most of the time, nearly all the time, even through my crazy period and her crazy periods of life happening. We and Tyler says this to this day that you know um we didn't put each other down. We tried to always like she was always one of my biggest champions, yeah. Even in my dark years. So good for you for making that conscious decision. And I think that then creates great parents when those kids grow up.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

Yeah, yeah. Hey, I hope you know we're leading by example, like right?

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Like we are leading by example, aren't we? Yeah, I mean, uh you heard me say that our kids are watching, they're always watching.

SPEAKER_05 13:07

Yeah, oh for sure.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Always, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, you want to do a question? Oh, I forgot. Here, yes, finally, I have your book. That is yours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Thank you so much. I'm so excited. Oh gosh, you guys are awesome.

Losing Cooper And Living With Grief

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Okay, let's do a question. You've experienced a loss that no parent should ever have to face. How has losing your child shaped the way you move through the through the world today?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

That's a great question. And um, it it's an interesting question, and I love it because just six months ago, Riley and I were driving down the road, and I'm like, hey, how do you think we've changed since we lost Cooper? Um, and it's funny because I think it's made me softer, not weaker, softer. Meaning not better, more empathetic, wow, uh, more tolerant of things that were in the past I'd be like, okay, just toughen up. I'm like, well, maybe there's a reason they feel like this. Like maybe there's something heavy going on we don't know about in the background, right? Um it's also made me um realize what really matters. You know, I we talked earlier, um, you know, I built a career, and for so long, a lot of my worth was caught up in the job, in who I was in my career. Yeah. And the accolades and the tangible things. And then when you lose the child, you're like, actually, I don't really give a shit about this car or this ring or this job. Like you just you it perspective really shifts for you. And then you're like, okay, actually maybe, actually, maybe that stuff doesn't matter as much. Um, don't get me wrong, I still love having a nice car and having nice things like the, but it makes you really realize the value of what matters, right? So there's there's a couple parts of that. So some sometimes I see things and people are just freaked out about stuff, and I'm like, gosh, you guys, that doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Yeah, like it's it's in the bigger scope of things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Um, but the flip side is it's made me softer, not weaker, softer. Like, hmm, maybe that person has something else going on that we're not aware of. And again, before we lost Cooper, I really cared what other people thought. Okay. Because I was building a brand, which was me in my career. And when I lost Cooper, I realized that didn't really matter. And maybe I needed to be a little more transparent about what was going on in real life, because there's a lot of people that have a lot of stuff going on that they are keeping quiet and just and just living life in the highlight reality.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

We don't talk about.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Yeah. So that's probably the stuff that's changed me the most about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah. If I may ask, and it's okay, um, his sister. How's she how's she with it all?

SPEAKER_00 16:11

She's doing good.

unknown 16:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

I guess the whole family.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, the family's doing good. It's I'm glad you brought up the sister and and Hunter, her his brother. Um in grief, I think everybody when someone's child dies, everybody's worried about the mom. Everybody. It's it's normal.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

It's kind of like divorce. So we don't think about the kids. We actually say, Oh, the kids are fine.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, they're resilient. And like siblings, when they lose someone, they're expected to just be like that they'll be fine, they'll go through it.

SPEAKER_03 16:47

Gotta be there for your mom.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah. And uh probably about six months after Cooper passed away, Riley and I were talking one day, and she's like, I just feel like, you know, I don't want to tell you if I'm having a sad day because I don't want to make you sad. And I'm like, oh honey, you can't make me sad. Like, I I I that's that doesn't make me sad when you I want you to be able to come to me and talk about that. So, you know, we have moments where we talk about things, and and she has good and bad days like everybody else. But overall, her and Hunter have done a really good job um maneuvering this grief. And here's a little special thing, and I think it's special. Her Austin, who is her boyfriend, um he has lost a brother as well. Oh, and so they have that in common. And so I think that's a really great support for them for each other, like, right? Like it's nice to have a partner that knows, like, yeah, I'm just having a bad day.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

And they are like, okay, I get it.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

But you know, walking through that so you can. Yeah. So so um, but yeah, the kids are doing pretty, pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

What helped you in the in those those first six months following his death? What helped you?

SPEAKER_00 18:07

I I had two people say stuff to me that almost immediately after Cooper passed away that I I knew I couldn't just uh lay down and not get back up. It was two things. The first person was Wade, and he said something to me that at the time I I was just kind of listening, but I had to absorb it. And he said, Honey, I know you're gonna be sad for a really long time, and that's fine by me. You can be sad forever. But I'm scared for our family because you're our happy. And I was like, Oh, and he didn't mean like it's your responsibility to make sure we're happy. What he meant is you bring the joy, like you're the magic in the house, and I'm afraid that'll go away.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

And so he was just fearful, yeah, wasn't judging you, wasn't saying you need to be different, but just saying, hey, I'm I'm concerned.

What Helped In The First Six Months

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah, yeah. So so that that really stuck with me, and that taught me almost instantly like I could never stop trying to find joy, even in my darkest moments, because I never want Riley or Hunter or my three grandkids to ever feel like my love for Cooper was so much greater that I stopped living and loving for them as well.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

And you see that happen. And I'm not faulting any parents, um, but you do see that happen. A lot the one in a percent of the focus becomes the death of that child.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was that was the first person that says something. The other person that said something to me was, you know, um, it was my sister-in-law, Jessie, but so one of my my well, my best friend, her um she lost her brother, who I graduated from high school with when he was 20 years old. Okay. And Cooper was 20 when he passed away. So when her mom came to the house like the day after and gave me a hug, it I had a moment where I was like, oh, I'm the Virginia woollard of my kids' generation, right? Like I'm the mom that's lost the 20-year-old. So now all of his friends are gonna be like, that's Cooper's mom. Like, that's what you just remember when you're young, because when you're young, you don't lose a lot of your friends.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And I said that to my sister-in-law, and she said, Yep, you are, but I want you to remember something. The woollards have had a lot of joy in their lives since they lost Brad.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

And they've enjoyed a they've had a lot of love and joy. So you you've got to remember that. And I thought, oh damn, well, she's right about that too. So, you know, those were the things that was helpful for you. Those two things really helped me. So the first six months were pretty miserable. Um, but I also knew that those first six months, I I was gonna live again. Like I was gonna live again. And it's just really hard to not live if you if you know there's light at the end of the tunnel, right? And and there's not a thing where you know, there's like this in my mind, I'm like, oh, in a year I'll feel better, and in in five years I'll feel better. I don't actually know if I will. Yeah, but what's really cool about it is I know that there's always gonna be an opportunity for joy.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

And also Cooper was really joyful and bright and sunny. So like, does he really want his mom to just give up? Probably not. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, I always remind people when talking about grief that there's um there's no one way for a person to process grief, and there's no timeline for grief, right? So um, but I think you you had those two people, you probably had more, but those people around you who what I'm hearing supported you in a way that helped you have hope, right? For sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Yeah. And you know, I had a I mean, I have a big community of people that loved me and helped me through a lot of different things. And, you know, the random little, you know, Cooper this is Cooper's shirt.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

That's why I'm wearing it. Um, you know, he loved mushrooms and stuff, a little hippie. Right. And so the surprise little mushroom things and the fun little interactions and the hey, I just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you text, like those things matter so much. So if you know somebody that's lost someone, the random just thinking about you goes so far. The the small touches just are so huge.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

They mean a lot.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Yeah, they really do. Because that's probably the biggest fear is that people you think people just forget.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

And this is this question is for educational purposes. Um, it's not meant to disparage people because I think we react in ways be a couple of reasons. We're uncomfortable or we don't know what to today. So we do what I say, we say stupid shit, right? To someone who's just lost a child. So if someone's listening out there and they know a friend who's just lost a child, what are things and to not do and not say?

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Oh my gosh. Um probably the biggest one is he's in a better place. And it's not meant that way. But in that deep grief moment, yeah, it feels hard and hard, and it's hard to hear.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Because what are you hearing?

What To Say And Not Say In Grief

SPEAKER_00 23:24

He's he's better off where he's at. And to a mom, you're like, there's nowhere better than to be with their their baby should be with them, right? Like, give me a break. Um, and that's never meant that way. It's never meant that way. But when you're sad, you feel that way in every moment. Um, so there's that. Um, and probably the other one that was a little shocking to me was when people would be like, well, after the first Christmas or after the first birthday, you know it'll be better. And actually, in full transparency, the first everything are hard, but you're so raw that it's like, okay, and it's almost the buildup that's worst, at least for me. I mean, I can't speak for everybody, but the buildup is the worst part, right? Like the prepping, like, oh, it's Christmas. So now I've got like the 22nd, the 23rd.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

You just it's not just Christmas. There's a whole bunch of things that happen that run up to the periods of time.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

You're just, you're just like, you're scared that you're gonna have a bad day. So you you build up this weird, icky feeling, and uh and so that that the first are not really that as hard for me as oh damn, this'll be the third whatever. Yeah you know, and so that's probably where it's harder because it just cements it more, it's it's more real.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

And what are those things you gave a couple examples, but that just you remember as being really helpful that many people did that was like that that was helpful that people said or did.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

Oh the text messages, the the calls, um I had two people, so I you know, we don't have photo albums anymore.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

No, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, uh, and my friend Tiffany, I had said something about how Riley had said, we don't even have any real pictures anymore. And she just went on my Facebook and stole a bunch of pictures and went down and printed them and literally brought them to my house. And then Rhonda surprised me with a really beautiful book one day.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

And you know, I'm very tangible things you can very volunteer.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

I'm super transparent on my grief journey and on all my journeys. I think I think that's pretty obvious by my social media. Yeah. And um, and so they just borrowed things off of their so it's kind of fun. Yeah, because what was really neat about the book that was made for me is I got to see what it wasn't just what was special to me, but what she thought was special. Yeah. So uh those are the things, and and uh, and then there's always like you know, it's always nice to, you know, I don't know, have someone offer to do something for you, whatever. But here's the thing we and I've done this a million times. If you need anything, let me know. Yeah, you ever gonna ask someone to do something for you?

unknown 26:06

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So just show up and do it, just do it. Yeah, just show up, show up, like you know, like intentional.

SPEAKER_00 26:12

Yeah, just show up and wash my dishes or just show up in it doesn't have to be that big of a deal.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

Big or glamorous or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So very good.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Okay. Another question?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, lay it on me.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Your advocacy, yeah, and I'm gonna I'm gonna preface this when I uh open the question up so people that are listening and don't know, they'll have some idea. You'll give some context too. But your advocacy comes from lived pain and deep love. What pushed you to turn grief into action, especially around changing the treatment system? So, a little context for those that are watching or listening, he was in treatment and overdosed and died.

SPEAKER_05 26:53

That's correct.

The Treatment System That Failed Cooper

SPEAKER_02 26:54

He was out of state, he was literally thousands of miles away in a whole different treatment system. And I'm guessing a treatment entity that you shopped, you looked at, you researched, vetted it, yeah, vetted it. Um, so that's that's the context. So um what pushed you to then turn your grief, anger, I don't know, all these feelings into action, especially around changing the treatment system. Well, um what have you learned, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Yeah, oh man, I learned a lot. So here's the thing when Cooper was uh needing help and wanted help, uh as anybody that knows when they have someone that needs treatment when someone's ready to go, you're like, let's roll.

SPEAKER_02 27:39

You gotta go. Yeah, there's a small window of opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah, we're making this happen. Okay, and um, you know, it was February and it's cold in Icky in Ellensburg. And so I was like, where do you want to go, son? Okay, and so he wanted to go to California. I was like, that's gonna be great because the weather's mild, and you know, and it just fit his his personality better. Uh we did some research, found this incredible facility. Um, they accepted um private health insurance, um, and and it was all hands on deck, like, let's go. Sent him down there. He thought he was doing fine, um, interacted with him every day, okay, multiple times probably. Um, and just felt like he was safe.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Right? When someone you love is in treatment, you're like, oh, that's guess what I get to. I'm gonna sleep so good for the next 90 days.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

As a mom, they're in a safe place. Kind of like when someone's in the hospital, you can doctors are there, same thing here. He's in treatment.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

So so I was doing all those things and feeling really confident in that. And then I missed it. I was actually going over with Wade to fly one day. Okay. We were at the mall. I missed a call, it was a California number, and I had a voicemail that he was uh unresponsive. Yeah, that's how I found out the surviving smell. And so I in my mind at that moment in that mall, I was like, I have to get to California. Yeah, he's gonna be in the hospital. It didn't even, it didn't register, and Wade's like, get in the car, we're driving home. And then they called back and and because they clearly understood that I was like, I need to update on my son. Like they they put the pieces together that I didn't understand and told me he had passed away. So, you know, you gather at the house, you do all the things. Well, guess what happens when you lose your child? You stop sleeping excuse me, almost immediately. So um then you get on the social medias, and so like maybe the day after Cooper died, I just researched my son died in rehab just to see what would happen. And I got a lot of pings on that. Yeah, and I thought, oh what? This is normal, like this is normal.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

She had no idea of the dangers.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

No, I I didn't. And so then I thought, well, how is he getting how did he get a pill, a hot pill in a rehab facility? Like what? And so um I just kept digging around and digging around and digging around. And I I found this really neat lady. Um, her name is Carrie, she lives in California as well. She lost a daughter in rehab. I friend requested her, like, you know, come on, like I I was I was grasping at anybody and anything. And the more research I did, the more I realized that um California especially doesn't have a lot of the same regulations that other states do. And so they don't have they don't have to jump through any hoops to open a facility. No, and just for um transparency, on their website, when you look at the facility, you see a facility. So in your mind, you know, we you drive by like sundown, you're like, that's a that's a that's a real facility, right? So when my husband and my two other children flew down to get Cooper's belongings, he called you didn't go? No, I couldn't go. Um I just couldn't.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

It's okay. It's okay. But so I think it's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

He flew down, yep, two days after Cooper passed away, and he texted me and he said, Hey Mandy, do you know this is a house at the end of a cul-de-sac in a neighborhood? And I was like, What? What it was a six-bedroom house. This was an inpatient treatment facility because the laws and the rules are not it's wild. It's wild. Um, so that's when I just knew like this is screwed up. And something's I I'm not the only mom or sister or parent or whatever. I'm not the only person, spouse, whatever, that's losing these people. And this is a cash cow for this for them. This is this is this is just a way for them to make a chip.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

So I'm guessing this was a for-profit entity.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Go on. Uh so um and and I want to say that's not I shouldn't there are there are reputable for-profit treatment entities out there, but they tend to be more of the ones that need to be shut down because the main goal is to make money.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, their their goal wasn't to help people. They're their their goal was to make money. So the more I did, and I want to be very clear about this, I don't know this about this facility, but the more investigation I did, the more I also realized they have typically what happens is people buy these houses. I think six-bedroom is the threshold. I'm not 100% sure on that because I can't quite get the answer. Uh, but where you don't have to have as many guidelines, right? They also don't take state insurance because it's regulated a little bit heavier.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Yeah, if you have a state, you have to jump through hoops.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

Yeah, yeah. So uh, and they don't get as much money. So they get these contracts with private health care companies, health insurance companies, right? Um, they get all these licenses, they do these BS accreditations.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

This sounds like recovery houses, not inpatient treatment centers.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

That's what it sounds like, but it is it's it's medical inpatient, inpatient rehab.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And that's what you saw on the website.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah. So um what happens is they get this approval. They I I've got all the documentation. They basically said, you know, Cooper needs 24-hour medical care.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

24-hour patient medical care. And so the insurance company, you know, approves it. And uh they send them to detox. Uh detox uh typically lasts uh seven to ten days. They get to bill your insurance company around$9,000 a day. And then when they go to regular treatment, it's around four to five thousand dollars a day.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

But this was in a house at a cul-de-sac in a neighborhood.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

They don't do, they don't have a they don't have a doctor. They don't have like they do telehealth. They were doing telehealth. So there were some things that happened, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:02

And I were there any clinicians there that you know of?

SPEAKER_00 34:05

No, not that I'm aware of. Um, so so what we discovered was uh they were doing everything they could to fly under the radar, right? Oh yeah. And um, and we just, you know, I'm just I'm just pissed as a mom that my kid died there. So I kept digging and digging and digging. And when somebody dies in a facility, the state is supposed to investigate it.

SPEAKER_03 34:30

Yeah.

Investigating “Rehab” Houses And Deficiencies

SPEAKER_00 34:31

So the state of California is very hard to maneuver. It's very hard to figure this out. It took me a long time, but I finally figured out who I needed to talk to. And somehow I got lucky and I talked to this lady, and she just said, I know the person you talk to. I think this is who's handling this case. So I reached out to the state, um, the the person that was handling the investigation, the state investigator, and I said, Hey, listen, um somebody is gonna be held accountable for the death of my son. And, you know, I don't, I don't know if it's the state of California, I don't know if it's the facility, I don't know if it's the guy that brought the pill. I don't know who it is, but somebody is going to, I'm gonna get some kind of justice. Um, and ironically, um she did a really good job investigating this facility.

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

And they found nine deficiencies in Cooper's death, like breach of confidentiality, the fact that they didn't have um, they weren't doing 24 hour uh hourly checks on him, none of that stuff. Uh the fact that people could come and go from the facility. There was a lot of stuff that came out.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

So let's stop calling it a facility from this house. I mean, it's not a facility. Yeah. Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Right, right. So they found they found like nine deficiencies in that, and it prompted them to investigate. This is a a company that owns multiple houses.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Of course they do.

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Yeah, because it's a cash cow. Of course. So they hit these houses, these homes, and they they continued to investigate and they found a lot of deficiencies in them. What sucks about the deficiencies is you're like, yes, we're shutting them down. Yes, we're winning. So the fine for the death of my son was about$2,300. So again, I could sit at home and cry and feel mad, or I could be like, what? No, this isn't right. We there's something that has to change. So are we gonna change all those facilities? No. Are we gonna make a difference in that aspect? Probably not. I mean, there's so there's so much going on, right, with it. But what really I would love to see happen, and I'm learning how to facilitate this. This is not as easy as everybody's like, oh, you just need to do it.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, good.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Sure. Yeah, uh, sign me up twice.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Um those facilities there needs to be, and I feel very strongly about this, there needs to be a system in place where it's maybe it's federally mandated or whatever. Every licensed rehab facility in the country has some sort of a rating system. So then it says, okay, this facility, you know, has had, you know, two breach of confidentialities, to the right, so that when you're looking for a place to send your loved one, you can look it up. I'm an insurance agent. You can look at my license, you can look if I've ever had any complaints against me, all those things. My husband's a contractor, you can look at his contractor's license.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Same with the pre-pool. I mean, if we have anything, someone can look it up. Yeah, it's as they should be able to.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Right. And it doesn't even have to be founded, like it doesn't have to be like it could be just like this was an investigation. Yes. And so while, yes, they can't share private medical information about a person, it still needs to be something where we can say, look, this facility is rated like this. And I think that would keep honest people honest. And I think it might vet out some of those bad things because they don't want to deal with it. And that would also force a little more regulation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Yeah, it's a it's an industry that I've I've uh seen. I've seen a lot, I've watched a lot of documentaries about Florida specifically. Um, but I'm not surprised California, you know, these bigger states um with less regulation are fraught with issues in this industry. And it is an industry that number one, there's a bunch of stigma surrounding addiction as it is. And I think the part of why this flies under the radar a lot of times because people don't want to talk about it.

SPEAKER_04 38:35

Yep.

Accountability, Fines, And Policy Gaps

SPEAKER_02 38:36

And people just want to put a band-aid on it. Um and it's a health condition that's just still to this day not taken seriously. Right. And my educated guess is that, you know, they're like, well, you know, he made a choice and blah, blah, blah, all this garbage that happens. Um, so it's it's uh I'm not surprised to hear. Um I'm I'm sh I'm actually shocked. I was getting angry sitting here. Uh all the knowledge I have in this industry that wow, an inpatient treatment facility, but it was a house in a fucking cul-de-sac. Like, what? That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah, yeah. So a house in a cul-de-sac with six bedrooms, and each room had access. And um, actually, this person was able to and and remember, Cooper's not from California. No, he doesn't live in California. He was able to get the person's information from it somehow inside that facility.

SPEAKER_02 39:30

I'm not surprised, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:31

Right, which that based on the structure is normal, right? Because you probably not normal, but they you would, I mean, not normal, but you would talk amongst people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Sure. Um, and and find maybe a connection that way, but it was it was delivered to the facility. Yeah. And um and you said something that I want to bring up. You said, you know, when people say, well, it was his choice. And I when people say that, I'm like, you're you're dumb. Like, that's just a dumb thing to say. But um, when I think about that, I have an answer for those people um when they say, Well, because it's like they're if you are so fortunate as to never experience someone that's had some sort of addiction, whether it's alcoholism, drug, whatever, right? I gambling addiction, I don't know what your addiction is, but if you didn't if you never experience that, you're very fortunate. Yeah, however, yeah, if you are one of those people that are like, oh, it's your thoughts, you may you know, you know, the F around and find out kind of thing, that kind of stuff, yeah, I want to say, okay, cool. Do you buy health insurance?

SPEAKER_01 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

Because guess what? These places that I want to make a change in, they're stealing your money.

SPEAKER_01 40:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:49

Because guess where do you think? How do you think they're paying those bills through your premium dollars? Yeah. So now does that bother you? Is now is that something you can get behind as a consumer?

SPEAKER_02 40:59

I like that you talk about that because the area I always talk about is tax dollars. Yeah. You know, we're paying taxes to send people to treatment, and a lot of these treatment facilities or houses need to be shut down. Yeah. Right. So um sometimes that helps people. Yeah. But uh ignorance is bliss, isn't it? Right. Yeah. Not knowing, and and uh again, an industry that is fraught with stigma and shame and guilt, and it's the one health condition that we do it the most with.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

Is is addiction.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Yeah. Yeah, right. Because if someone was sick with anything else, we'd just be like, we just gotta get them the best. And everybody, and everybody stops what they're doing, they're like, what can I do to help?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

And with this, they're like, Well, I don't know, uh should have saw that coming, and it's like, oh, okay. Yeah. Um, and in full.

SPEAKER_02 41:46

A lot of times, all while they're drinking their alcohol saying it's okay. You know, it's okay. But well, drugs, that's bad. Well, why is the di what's the difference?

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yeah, right. Like, whatever your vice is is still vice, right? Like people have them all the time.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Let's do another question.

SPEAKER_00 42:02

Yeah.

Stigma, Insurance Dollars, And Public Cost

SPEAKER_02 42:02

We've talked a little bit about this, so you can expand on a little bit if you want, maybe some different views. You've been outspoken about gaps in care and accountability when it comes to treatment. From your perspective, what needs to change most? So maybe think of the big things to better protect and support people seeking recovery or seeking treatment. What need what are the big things? If you if you are in a position of power, what would you change based on your experience?

SPEAKER_00 42:33

Well, um, probably the biggest one would be oh wow, that's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

And maybe maybe let's do this, maybe go backwards because you and I had conversations about Cooper along the way before he went to California, you know. Maybe just thinking about the whole of having a a young person who needs help, thinking about systems of care. Oh, it's there's there's I mean what are the ones you struggled with the most, the areas that you would change if you could?

SPEAKER_00 43:06

It's hard to find. There's not enough, there's just not enough facilities. That's like that's there's not enough places that really care if the truth be told. Like that really care.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Um can you describe that?

SPEAKER_00 43:22

Um that want to get granular with him, that want to not just check the boxes. It wasn't Cooper's first time in rehab. We've gone to a couple different ones. Um, and you gotta be really careful. Like, is it a codino? Like a co a current yeah, right. Like what, you know, is it just you know, and and not a one size fits all. There's not a one size fits all. That's really important.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Um, you know, and especially for youth, right? Yeah, especially. And what I found that was interesting is they were taking Cooper as like a 17, 18 year old and putting them with like 55 year old men. That's he's still a kid. Like he doesn't have, you know, a mortgage and all these things. Like he doesn't have those life experiences.

SPEAKER_03 44:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

So how can he get in front of people? And how can he, you know, how can he be really transparent with who he is? Um, so I think that was probably one of the hardest ones. And just honestly, just finding even just a guy, a guidance counselor that was that would talk to him, like not a guidance, like a therapist or something, you know. Um, those that was hard as well. Um and it's so much about timing. And if the timing is off, it doesn't work. Yeah, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah, you you speak to two realities of the industry as a whole um in our healthcare system, and especially talking about youth. Um, just globally speaking, for youth adults, for everyone, there's not enough care out there. And then um I hear what you're saying about I think a lot of facilities, places, they're just the system. This just keep that wheel churning of the system, and there's not really true individualized care. Would that be that's exactly right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

Um, also the pressure. I feel like there's a lot of pressure on some of the people inside those facilities working them. And so, you know, they have a caseload, right? So they and they're so heavily bombarded. Like it's it's so much that it changes. It's no longer like, what do you need, David? It's like, okay, so you've done this, now you're gonna just check in boxes now you go through this class and have that make you feel, okay. Well, you know what? Here, here's a worksheet on how how to handle your tool, yeah. Here's your tools from your toolbox, and off they go.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

And this isn't a hit on the professionals working in the field at all. But the system causes this to happen.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Well, they they have like it's kind of like when you go to your doctor's office and they they've got you scheduled for 45 minutes, but you really probably need an hour of 15.

SPEAKER_05 46:00

Yeah.

What Must Change In Treatment

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Right. So that's what's happening, I noticed. And and sometimes that's not all of them. Like some, like I like Cooper had this one gal that he really just bonded with and enjoyed, and they would spend a lot of time talking, and she would be like, Okay, we're not gonna worry about that today, because she wanted to spend the time getting to know him. And I think that that was a better, a better setup. And I think that's how people are as a whole. So it it is no no disrespect to the folks working so hard in there. It's just there's such a big caseload, they're so short-staffed, they don't have a lot of room, and then they're also dealing with a lot of different emotions, right? So they're working on, they might be sitting with you and doing this, but then there's some chaos down the hall. Yeah, that they know they have to deal with it. They're like, our time's over, we gotta do that. Like it's just it's just too thin.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

And, you know, locally in our county, we have zero inpatient facilities. We have we do have Sundown, which is just outside of our county. They do have a youth program, but that might be it unless you go to the west side, which is good luck getting in, or Spokane, which maybe you can get in. But in our region, Central Washington, which is a big region with a lot of people, we don't have a lot youth specific.

SPEAKER_05 47:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

And then we get into fortunate for you. Oh God, this pisses me off. But you guys actually were fortunate you had the ability, you had private insurance and people to pay to have coupe sent down to California, and we know the result of that. So then um imagine families who don't. Yeah, then they're stuck with the state system that for sure has those issues of just churning. Let's just get them in, get them out, get them in, get them out. So it's a huge, huge issue.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

And one thing about that is so if you didn't have say like you didn't, say like you just don't have healthcare.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

And you don't you don't qualify for state health care.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

Yeah, right? A lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 47:59

So now what are you doing? If your child or your spouse or your loved one, right, is sick.

SPEAKER_02 48:06

Do you remember by chance how much that facility was? That house?

SPEAKER_00 48:10

It was nine, it was nine thousand dollars a day when he was in detox detox and four thousand forty two hundred dollars a day when he was in regular outpatient in a 90-day stent.

SPEAKER_02 48:25

So imagine what you're talking about this. Yeah, inpatient that scenario where you you or you have healthcare with high deductible or just doesn't have that.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

So yeah, so what's happening, what else what also happens and is total bullshit, because they can't have they don't have health insurance. What would you give to save your loved one's life? You'd give anything, right? You would pull money out of your 401k, you would take money off your house, you would do you'll do whatever it takes to facilitate these things because that's what we do when we want to save the people we love. None of that stuff matters, only the people matter. So these predatory facilities are capitalizing on that.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And that's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

It's a huge problem.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

That's why they need to be vetted and they need to be cleaned up. And, you know, it it's just, and there's no way to find out. I mean, there it's that's that's not completely true. I could have done a records request on every facility in the state of California, but again, your window's this big, you don't have time for that crap, and you don't even think about it.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Yeah. Yeah. And it's and it's also an industry that is shrouded in a lot of secrecy.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

You know, because of, you know, well, HIPAA, which we want HIPAA, right, but a lot of facilities hide behind that too, right? And they're acting unethically in a lot of different ways. Yeah. Um, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

All right. One more question for you, and then we'll do our closing questions. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 49:58

I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Good. How are we doing out there? Oh, we've got a lot of people. Hey, Alicia! Hi Alicia. Nice. Okay. I've always truly like even more so now, but I've always appreciated your friendship and the way you show up in the world. It says for this work, but just in the world, because you you're just a good human all around. What has community and connection meant to you as you've navigated your grief and now advocacy in this arena?

SPEAKER_00 50:27

Um I think it's important that we show all the all the good and the bad, right? Um, I'm super transparent in that. If I have a shitty day, I have a shitty day, and that's okay to say that. Um because I've allowed myself to be vulnerable, I think that's a way that I've shown up for my community, and I think it helps others feel like they can be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yes, it does.

Community, Vulnerability, And Support

SPEAKER_00 50:56

Right? Like it's okay. And um, and because I've been able to be transparent, I think it's helped me move through this really hard stage in my life, really hard moments in my life, right? But it's also helped me create relationships that are valuable in in all the different ways, both with like my goals and aspirations to make make you know Cooper's legacy a really meaningful one, but also in just having a cool friendship with people and and that kind of stuff. So um the connection to community is really important to me. Um also I think it's important that we remember that we're just people peopling. Yeah, right? And everybody is doing that, yeah, and they're doing the best they can with what they have. And if we are really good at knowing that, we're really good at building a great community and a great foundation to do big things. You know, anything I want to do, I can't do by myself.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:16

And so I've been really fortunate to have the people I have in my corner. And and it's it's wild to me the amount of people that will just randomly message me and and say, Hey, you're on my mind. And then that feels good, right? So then I try to copy that and I try to reach out and go, you know what? Maybe this person just needs to hear this. And you know, Wade and I are big believers in karma. And I think what we put out and we'll get back.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

So I'm communities basically what's made me survive through this.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

It's so true. I, you know, just talking about because my overall mantra in life is to help every individual I interact with see they have it within them to do amazing things, right? And for me, that comes from having to walk the walk that I have walked through my own life, which you know you know because I'm pretty public about it. And, you know, when I'm out in the world, I try as best I can on a daily basis to have that mindset of I, you know, I just I don't know what one person may be going through, good, bad, or ugly in any given scenario. And so, you know, community for me, like you, is where it's at. Yeah, you know, it's where we can have the most effect on change that then that karma thinks, I believe in karma too. I believe 100%. What I'm putting out is gonna come back. I've seen it, right? I've felt it, it happens. So the more that I as a community member and you you as a community member, even when things aren't good, we keep using our community in positive ways, that that has a ripple effect. I really believe that to be true.

SPEAKER_05 53:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Um, and that's what I love about our community. That's one of the many things I love about our little community of Ellensburg and Kid of Task County is you know, when when shit happens, we rally.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

Yeah, that is fair.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

We we rally we've got our problems for sure. We like to bitch about stuff, but um, and also, you know, the good stuff. We have a lot of good in our community, and and um I've always, you know, we're gonna go into the closing questions. Um, you know, I want to say to you and everyone out there, um, I've always appreciated your support of the recovery community in Vicksburg. And this was, you know, before you lost your son, yeah, and you know, and even more so after.

SPEAKER_04 54:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Because I, you know, I say this about loss when it's one of my worst fears in life, you know, is and you've probably heard that, you know, losing my son are now my grandson's just like so. I really listen closely to you and my other friends who have lost either kids or grandkids. I listen closely because you just never know.

SPEAKER_04 55:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

I've always appreciated your support. Um, when you, you know, put uh the KCRCO, which is now Peers Rising, as a beneficiary of the fundraising. Um, you know, you and I have had great conversations along the way. That's I just remembered what I was gonna say. No one, no one out there listening or watching this as they've listened to this would fault you if you were angry, yeah, or bitter or closed. No one would fault you for that, but you've made a conscious decision. What I've heard this through this conversation is you've made a conscious decision based on information that people close to you have hey, we need you. Yeah, we want you here, and you've said it yourself wearing Coop's shirt here. He he wants your light here, and that's a powerful thing.

SPEAKER_00 55:53

Yeah. Cooper was everything good. I might get a little teared up here. Cooper was everything good, beautiful, loving, smart, articulate. He didn't want to feel bad about himself, and he didn't want to be sick, and that's what it is. And he hated that part about himself. He didn't hate himself, he hated that part of himself. And I think the best way I could honor him is to live all of the parts of Cooper and show up stronger than he was able to do for himself.

SPEAKER_05 56:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

And um, and I will say this, and I tell everybody this when you lose somebody you love any way you want to feel is okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Um, and one important takeaway that Wade also shared with me, man, he it sounds he's very smart. Um, but he shared something with me, and I was just having it, I was pissed off and creaky, and I was fighting with him. Not about dumb stuff. Like you just it's like you're agitated, it's a lot of friction there.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

I never irritate Katrina.

A Message Of Hope To Families

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Yeah, I I never irritate Wade. I never um, but I I was I must have just been being pissy and probably because I was sad, but I was fighting it and I kept like and he said, Hey, can I say something? I'm like, Yeah, he's like, when you feel sad like that, he's like, if you have the flu and you say, I don't feel good, I've got the flu, you just go to bed and no one bugs you. Yeah, he's like, do that and work through it. Yeah, so then you can show up the next day.

unknown 57:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

And that gave me permission, and I didn't need it, but sometimes you have to hear it, right? Because in your mind, you you set your own these these rules for yourself.

unknown 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:43

In your mind, you have these rules. So that gave me permission. So I'll have mornings where I get up and I'm feeling great and I take a shower, ball my face off, and then like I got that over with. Now let's get the day going. And so that's that's just what I mean. That's probably my recommendation. Anybody grieving, like, give in to it, but don't give up to it.

SPEAKER_02 58:03

Yeah. Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

I want to share this with you. I uh use this one. Um that that is me.

SPEAKER_05 58:16

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

Uh, you see that one, they can't see it, but I have a picture on my wall of me as about a six, seven-year-old boy with my Tonka truck. That's grandson Anthony. And and you'll appreciate this. Um, no child, no child, as they're growing up, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years old. No child ever is growing up and trying, and it doesn't happen in the preschool, three to five years old.

SPEAKER_04 58:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

No child ever, as they're walking through their life, says, you know, one day I want to become addicted to drugs.

SPEAKER_05 58:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 58:50

One day I want to become an alcoholic or a drug. No child ever does that. That doesn't happen. Children want to live, they want to, they want to be in the world, they want to have great experiences, right?

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

And and we put so much attachment to, you know, well, they made a choice and they did this and they did that, instead of just maybe having some empathy and understanding that number one, it's a health condition, right? It's a behavioral health condition. And you know this as well as anyone else, that it addiction doesn't care. It doesn't care your age, your economic status, the color of your skin, none of that.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

None.

SPEAKER_02 59:28

And when we start looking at a substance use disorder as the the health condition it is, then we can have a little more empathy and understanding.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

The thing with Cooper that was he was my kid that flew into the radar. If you told me when he was like uh middle school that we were gonna have this journey, I'd have laughed in your face. He was my rule follower, he was very, you know, it was very, very shocking to me. I had some rose-colored glasses on.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

Um, and then when I realized, oh, he's it took me a while. This wasn't like a teenage kid trying something and then you know, for funsi. He was battling some depression and anxiety, and he was trying to quiet that noise.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

And so he his his his drug of choice was Xanax to start with, so he could quiet that noise. And um, and that was really eye-opening to me because he was also my kid that you would never knew. You'd have never known that.

unknown 1:00:38

Yeah.

Closing Reflections And Gratitude

SPEAKER_00 1:00:38

Like, hey buddy, he's like, hey mom. He was less like, you know, and so yeah, never. Yeah, and my other two kids, like if they were having a bad day or pissed off or super happy, you knew. Yeah, you didn't know that with Cooper. Now, he that didn't mean he didn't have moments where he lost his shit because he's a teenager, right? Like they all do that, or little kids, and but um he flew under the radar really, really hard for me. And it was at first, I almost didn't even believe it. At first, I was almost like, is this some weird attention thing? Like it took me a while. And then once I realized, I was like, oh gosh, man, we gotta get you some help. And uh, and and we worked on that. I mean, I've I leaned into you. I was like, David, can you we talk to my son? Like, you know, and I thank you so much for that, you know, and and being so willing instantly. You were like, Yep, come on over, bring them over, whatever you need, or I'll meet you. Like it was really, really um empowering, actually. So um anyway, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:39

Yeah, good. Okay. Now's your time to anyone listening to this now, a month from now, a year from now, maybe a mom who's struggling with a child, who's in active addiction, maybe a mom who's just lost a child.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:55

Maybe, maybe someone, an individual who's just struggling in some way with life. It's your opportunity to send a message of hope.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:02

What would you say to someone who's struggling, maybe in the arena that you've struggled in?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:07

Yeah. If you have somebody an active addiction, don't be ashamed of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

I was remember, I was I had a I had an image tab hold. I'm being pretty vulnerable here. I had an image tab hold. You know, I had a business I was running. I like I I had my shit together, okay? I'm firing all cylinders. And then in the back side, all hell's breaking loose in my mind, right? With my with my child. Um, and I would say don't be ashamed of that and lean into your people, and you'll know who those people are real quick. Yeah, yeah. And and lean into them hard because they're gonna love you and they're gonna love you through it, and they're gonna love your kid through it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

Good. So be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

Yeah, and be okay with that. Yeah. So that's the first one. The second thing I would say, if it's somebody that's grieving a heavy grief, um be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:09

I think the more sincere we are, the better response we get. I think when we act too tough, I think it I think it does us an injustice. I think what it does is we're like, oh, we don't need one, so we're fine, we're not, we're not, yeah. And um so then people stop asking, stop, stop want because they're like, oh, they're fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:31

They must be okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Okay, they're fine. And really what you're you're starving inside for you're hurting, and you just want someone to recognize that. Sometimes you just need to be recognized. It doesn't have to be this grandiose thing. So those are the two things. Just be be prepared to be really vulnerable because you'll get a better result. And that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Okay. All right, this is it. Okay, what's a question you've always wanted to ask me?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

Okay, I got one for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

Besides your family, and besides your career, what are you most proud of?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

Besides family and career.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:14

Right. Because those are always like oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

Uh it's KCRCO.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:19

If if that's if that's because I've I've let it go. I'm I'm not even part of it anymore. Um, that was a years-long process in my brain that I finally started and launched. Um, and it's here in the community and it's thriving. Um, I'm very proud of that. Yeah. I'm very proud of um who I am as I guess a person in the world. But you know, I've always said my most important role is being a father, but who I am as a grandfather.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:50

Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

And you said not family.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:52

It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:53

But um, but uh aside from that, uh, I was uh working with Johnny today in the field, and and I had little Jerry um uh who I am with our pets, yeah, like our our dogs and even the cat onyx, but um that I really love working with Johnny and now I get to work with Jerry, so I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:15

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

Oh, that's cool. I like it. I think that's really neat. David, you're a really special person, and I really appreciate and respect you. Um and thank you for letting people have opportunities to talk about the things they need to talk about. It's really empowering. And I think it's I think it's something that most people don't realize how empowering it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:42

Good.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

Yeah. Well, launch this, this was uh something my son said, you should start a podcast, and I resisted it. And then I think it was him who's like, You should have guest on. And I'm like, okay, let's give it a try. It's been super cool.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:55

It's super cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Um, and and I appreciate and thank you for your kind words. I say this, and this is just my reality for myself. I'm just a kid from the streets of Tacoma who has seen some things and done some things and have. Been able to create the life that I have today, have not done it in isolation. It's because of people like you and many others who have been willing to show up and lift me up and and help me along the way.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:22

Because you kind of said this, I think earlier. There's you know, none of what I've been able to do in my world has done been done in isolation.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Right? Yeah, I've done the work. Because people say, Well, you've you look at yes, I've done the work.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:34

But I have not done it alone.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:36

Right? I've done it with with people who have been like, Oh, yeah, that's a great idea. What can I do to help? You know, or people out in front of me doing stuff. That's really important to me. Like, oh, oh, that's really cool what they're doing. Maybe I'll try this. Yeah. Stepping into the fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:52

So this has been great. It's awesome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:55

Thank you. Okay. This is the part where we hug it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:59

We did it. Nice. Okay.