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Deep Dive with Dr D
Discussions on life and living with Dr D. A man who has risen from the lowest depths of life to the amazing life he has now.
Deep Dive with Dr D
Live Better Longer - w/guest Ian Quitadamo
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Your body keeps score, even when you feel “fine.” I sit down with Dr. Ian Quitadamo, a professor, scientist, and internationally certified integrative health practitioner, to talk about what it actually takes to live better longer and why most of us never get that roadmap in a rushed medical system. Ian’s work became personal when his wife faced cancer, and the experience sharpened his mission: help people advocate for their health with clarity, compassion, and zero judgment.
We dig into what integrative health really means in practice: not just nutrition or fitness, but sleep, stress, toxin load, emotional balance, recovery, and sustainable behavior change. Ian explains why functional medicine lab testing can be a reality check amid endless social media advice, and how tracking data over time can reveal problems before they become symptoms. We also get tactical about everyday levers that cost nothing, like consistent sleep, getting morning light to support circadian rhythm, and short post-meal walks that improve blood sugar and insulin sensitivity.
Then we go deep on heart health and cholesterol myths. Ian breaks down the lipoprotein “truck” analogy, why statins can help some people but still leave gaps, and which lab markers to ask your doctor about, including ApoB and lipoprotein(a). We also touch on GLP-1 weight loss drugs, the importance of reading risk labels, and why real, sustainable weight loss can still come from delicious whole foods and steady support.
If this conversation gives you one thing, I hope it is a stronger sense that your health is shaped by the decisions you make today and that you do not have to do it alone. Subscribe for more, share this with someone who’s trying to change, and leave a review so more people can find us. What is one health question you want to start asking with confidence?
Who Ian Is And Why He Serves
SPEAKER_01So welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. I'm glad you're here. It's a pretty nice Sunday morning in Ellensburg, and I have with me guest Ian Quitadamo. Yes, I like to get that right. My guest today. And uh I always like to do my shameless plug for the short story of the wild ride of my life. That is your copy, my friend. Thank you, brother. Uh, and I hear from people you can sit down and read that in one setting. Awesome. And you usually go, wow, you know a little bit of my story, but that kind of paints the picture of the wild ride of my life. And uh you can get that bird if you buy books. And then something new. I'm also so we got a couple new things, is is this view being streamed to Facebook, which is a much better view. And then the other one is I'm gonna start um doing some advertising for if you have a local business. We'll do that. I'm not doing it today. Uh so yeah, if you have an interest in that, you can um email me at dr davidadouglas at gmail.com, dr davidadouglas at gmail.com, or just send me a message. Enough of that. Man, and this is this episode, and then next weekend I'll be in sunny Arizona, and I think I'm gonna do an episode down there just me. And then uh the following week will be uh really good friends, someone I've known since she was 14, uh, Bailey Linder. She's a local business owner, local family Bailey Duncan, that's her maiden name, Linder, the Linder family. So here we go. Welcome. Good morning. I love talking to Ian, so this is really cool. And you and I have just gotten to know each other just over the last year, yeah, right? Uh, you and my wife, uh Katrina, you uh work with her on her health, which we're gonna talk a lot about that. So I've always I'm a listener, you know. I listen to the functional part and the cost part because we've talked about the cost and all of that, which has changed a lot even since we've got to be.
SPEAKER_04We're gonna talk about that.
SPEAKER_01I'm excited. Um, but you you you and I share, we work in the Douglas Honors College, I work with McNair, and when we're in meetings, I always enjoy listening to you. Um, just your how your brain works, and you and I have a lot in common. And then I've also, you may not know this, I've kind of eavesdropped when you're teaching classes. It's cool. And then I hear the student side, which we're also going to talk about that. Um, Emma Miller, Emerson Miller. Um, you know, I've talked to her about your teaching and how you're just all in.
SPEAKER_04I am all in, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01So let's start with this. This is not a question on the list. Um introduce yourself to the world out there. Whoever may not know anything about Ian, who are you personally, professionally? Uh, tell us about that.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, for sure. Well, thank you for the opportunity to come and share with your audience today. I'm Dr. Ian Quitadamo. I am um a professional scientist and professor, and uh also an integrative health practitioner and an internationally certified integrative health practitioner. Um, and uh, you know, the the part of the reason why I'm here today is I want to help people advocate for their health. It is the one thing that is really a non-negotiable for everybody. Um, if you have great health, you never think about it. And if it's bad, you don't think of anything but it.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_04It's you're just super focused on hyper focused.
SPEAKER_01Like if something's going on, that's all we're thinking about.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I've I see it, I see it every single day. And so um I became an integrative health practitioner uh because my wife got cancer. Yeah, and um, you know, that's a that's a that's a rough that's a rough road to go. And so um, you know, I'm I'm a cell molecular biologist, and I'm aware of what's happening to her body as the cancer is being treated, and you know, it's it's uh it really takes a biological toll. And so I made it my personal mission to one help my wife Jody navigate through those challenges in in as comfortable a way as possible.
SPEAKER_01Can I interrupt you? So how was that for you? Because you're you're uh a scientist, so you how was that for you mentally, emotionally, knowing what your wife's going through?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, uh, you know, I I don't know if all men are like this, but I I'm like this, which is um, you know, I'm protective.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_04And so my first my first reaction is to protect my wife. Yeah, and uh, you know, she means more to me than anything. And so I'm just really um okay, what strategy are we gonna use when when you're getting the chemo? Okay, um, so we put her ice, we put ice on her hands and her feet to prevent circulation from going there. Um, because when the chemotherapy goes to your extremities and your small blood vessels, it starts to destroy those and also negatively affect your nerves. And sometimes that can be permanent, so we call that neuropathy. And so by changing the circulatory response of her body when she's getting the treatments, it kept the a lot of that drug from going to those extremities, so she never got neuropathy. And I fed her ice chips for an hour and a half, so it kept it away from her mouth.
SPEAKER_01So you being who you are, you love your wife, she's everything to you. She gets this cancer diagnosis. I have this knowledge, I'm going to help that go much better for her. I'm going to try to save her in ways that maybe others couldn't or can't.
SPEAKER_04You you really really leveraging knowledge as a way to really connect with the human part. So we're in the cancer ward, and there are lots of people there, and very few of them have somebody there advocating. Yeah. You know, right next to us was a a woman who was constantly repeating these mantras to herself, and nobody was there to help her. It broke my heart to hear that.
SPEAKER_01And so um And we hear that a lot in healthcare.
SPEAKER_04Oh, yeah. So, you know, I'm cracking jokes and making, you know, trying to, you know, and and you know, we Jody really took charge um of that aspect. She was always dressed to the nines when she went to her treatments. Um, you know, when she got home while the steroids were still in her body, um, she would work out in the fire to clear it metabolically as fast as she could from a body. I've never seen I I'm I'm a six-degree black belt and full contact karate. I've never seen anything that tough. And I've seen some very tough things in my life, but to watch my wife work out and and every movement is an effort, and she's working out in the foyer in order to clear that. I've never I'll never forget that. Um, and she did it every time she got a treatment. So then she collapsed for two days.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Yeah. Body needs a reset. Yes, okay.
SPEAKER_04So you're married. Yeah. Kids? Yeah, we have three kids. Three!
SPEAKER_01Tell me about them.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so uh Jody's biological daughter and my bonus daughter is Lark. Okay. She's our oldest. She's uh she's 28. She lives with her fiance in San Francisco. Uh gonna be moving up to Seattle or Bellevue soon, which we're all very excited about. Yeah. And then my biological kids, Jody's bonus kids, are Tasia and Saxon.
SPEAKER_00Cool.
SPEAKER_04And so how old are they? Tasia's 27, and Saxon is gonna be 25 on Tuesday.
SPEAKER_00Oh boy. Yeah, where do they live?
SPEAKER_04They live in Olympia, they live together. Oh, okay. And uh I talk to them every day. Okay, and uh we have a very close relationship, so they go with us and you know, travel to places like Japan and stuff.
SPEAKER_01So super cool. And then you have two dogs, one dog. We have one dog. We were talking dogs before this. He got to meet Jerry, and Jerry, like we almost lost our dog, so I'm gonna have to watch when he leaves. Two dogs.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, we have one dog, one dog, sorry. Yeah, Luna Blue, she's uh an Aussie Shepherd. Nice, she's very, very smart. Anyone that has an Aussie knows exactly what I'm talking about. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01German Shepherd, Aussies, you you gotta know what you're getting into.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01And then um, how long have you and Jody been married?
SPEAKER_04We've been married uh almost 15 years. Nice, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00What does Jody teach?
SPEAKER_04Well, we've been together 15 years, but we've been married uh about uh almost 12.
SPEAKER_00That's almost in line with me and Katrina. Yeah, and what does she teach at the college?
SPEAKER_04She's a history professor, so she teaches history and political science. So wow. Nothing going on in that field right now. Boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how long have you been at Central? I've been at Central almost 25 years.
SPEAKER_01That's wild to me that you and I well, I mean, we just work in different areas in IT management, you and biology, but um okay, so a while. And how long have you guys how long have you lived in Ellensburg?
SPEAKER_04Uh I mean Yeah, the the weekend that I um I got the job offer, I went and bought a house and went to look for a dojo all in the same weekend.
SPEAKER_01So was your were you on Pine Street, the dojo?
SPEAKER_04No.
SPEAKER_01When we first Who was on Pine Street long time ago? What year did you move to Ellensburg? 2002. Right, 2001. Okay. In 2004, when I had the Hungry Hippo subshop was on Pine, there was a karate place. That was not us. It was not you. Where were you?
SPEAKER_04We were doing stuff with Ellensburg Community Schools, okay, and then that just became problematic at the time, and so uh we were at the dance studio downtown for a little while. Yep, that didn't work uh long term either. Yep, and then um we went back to community schools for a little bit, but um they just don't prioritize community members and and the schedule very well. So sure. Um we went and uh we're currently out at the Jazzer Size studio. Sweet. And it's a perfect spot for us, it's a great space, yep. So lots of room, lots of uh and Sarah Nail, the owner of Jazzer Size, is amazing. So awesome. Yep, yeah, yeah.
A Career Pivot Toward How Humans Learn
SPEAKER_01Okay, so um we're getting to know you. This is good. Did you was it and I know a little bit of this, but tell, was it your always your dream to become a college professor?
SPEAKER_04Um I mean I've always sort of enjoyed uh the teaching process. Uh so when I was in when I was uh working in cancer research and working on my PhD in genetics and cell biology, um Where was that at? That was a Washington State University. Yeah, Pullman. Yep. Um so I was a pre-meded WSU and uh my original intention was to go and become a medical doctor.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_04And the more I got into it, the more I was like, hmm. There's a couple things that don't sit quite right with me. One is I want to have a family, um, and it's you have to be available, right? So um I never really had you have to be more than available. You do, you do, yes. And I had a very dysfunctional father who was mostly absent most of my life, so I was bound and determined to not be that guy. Okay. And so family is important to you. It's number one. Okay. Yep. And so um just you know, being a dad means being invested and being present, and so really focused on uh being available. So MD was not going to be the path for me for that reason, but it always bothered me that most medical doctors that I knew, and and no disrespect to doctors at all, I'm just describing their practice, not them as people, it's okay, is they were they were really just like a PES dispenser for for pharmaceuticals. And so I was like, hmm, I don't know if I want to do that. So I I stopped working towards becoming a medical doctor. I was prepared and ready to go to medical school, and and then decided I didn't want to do that, and then um said, Well, I I still really am drawn to helping people. How do I do that? And so I decided to become a cancer researcher in cell molecular biology, and so I worked on breast cancer a lot and um did some cool stuff there. Um but it still led me right back to the same place, which was pharmaceuticals. And again, sometimes they're the right tool for the job, but frequently they're not. And so that was my experience.
SPEAKER_01Um I don't think it's any secret that and it's and and like you're saying, and I agree that uh this isn't a hit on people who are doctors, but it's like let's just give them a pill. Let's and pharmaceuticals are our multi-billion trillion dollar industry that are constantly pushing pills, right? Let's just give a pill and then give a pill to give a pill.
SPEAKER_04It's it's more than it's more than that. Yes. So uh at when I was uh when I was working as a cancer researcher, you you get to know the industry, and it was really disillusioning for me because I was like, I I didn't want to become an MD to get away from that mentality. I'll I'll never forget. I was on a flight to Montreal for a tournament that me and my team were going to, and for the for karate karate, yeah, and uh I was sitting next to this guy from a far pharmaceutical company, and all he could talk about was all this money that he was. He barely started working at this company, and they threw money hand over fist to him, gave him a brand new BMW coupe, like right out of the game. So all the incentives were like and he was he was just talking this whole time, and I'm just like, Wow, this is illuminating, I don't want that either. So so I sort of put all of those things on hold, and then uh I I became intensely fascinated with human learning and as in during the process of being a graduate TA at WSU, I noticed that some magical things were happening in some classrooms and very much not happening in other ones. And as I looked into the scientific literature, I realized um this is a this is a an investigatable problem. And so I I started my my thirty you know, 30 years ago, I started this journey on um how do people learn and how do how do we help them learn better because most of society's problems can be fixed with better learning and better critical thinking. So that's what I focused on was critical thinking and human cognition. It was way harder than molecular biology, actually, because molecular biology is creative, but it's really more recipe-driven, right? Do this, do this, and if you do it right, then it turns out it's like baking. Like math. It's yeah, yeah, and so I just wanted something that was a little bit more creative, yes, creative, but um required more brain power in order to solve it. Like humans are the hard problem, right? We do some stupid shit, yeah, right? And I'm like, why? Yeah, like yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and so is that something that's absent in their learning, or where exactly does that come from? So yeah, I wanted to focus on that, so I did. So I actually left my PhD program. I'd already passed my preliminary exams, um, you know, done really well and all of those things, and then I was just like, I'm gonna switch gears.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04And people thought I was nuts. What year were you? How far in were you? I was I was about two years away from being done with my PhD in genetics and cell biology.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you had people going, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, well, I felt dissatisfied. Yeah. Uh I wasn't I wasn't getting enough of I like to draw from different areas. And so WSU has this amazing program, or at least they did, I don't know if they still have it, called an individual interdisciplinary doctoral program. And it was tailor-made for me, literally and figuratively. Like it was perfect for me. Because you can design it for what's important for you. I can design it. I had already done all these courses, yeah, and I was like, okay, I can still keep those, but then I can bring these things together. Um, and it was it was the best decision I ever made. So, because of that decision, it made me eligible for my eventual job at CW, which is a dual appointment position. What what was it? So, so initially I was hired to be uh in biology and teaching cell molecular biology, genetics, that kind of stuff. Ironically, to pre-meds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but uh also uh to uh in in uh what was uh called science education at the time. So I was working with pre-service teachers for half of my job. Okay, and I did that for quite a while and then eventually. So you're working in college of education and just biology, just just in the so science education was always housed in the college of the sciences, yeah, which is very unusual, but it was um it was a distinguishing feature that uh really was the envy of uh our colleagues nationwide to have it immersed in the college of the sciences. So um, and that was good. We we did a lot of good work there, and then eventually I left um what is now STEM teaching and uh and went to the Douglas Honors College, and that was also one of the best decisions I ever made. And how long have you been there now? This will be um this is the end of my first year, and then I was there for sort of onboarding for about half the year and just getting to know the community. So I I love it so much.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So what's a so this is a great intro. Uh so what's a fun fact about you that people usually don't know?
SPEAKER_04Um I love to read and play music. Um I'm not a natural musician, so but uh I've gotten a lot better. What do you play? I play guitar.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Um and then um, you know, I I love doing martial arts. I've done it for almost 40 years. I love um we've had eight people make the United States national team from Ellensburg. So wow. Mm-hmm. Mostly female fighters. That's kind of our specialty in the dojo is we have predominantly women, not exclusively, but we have a lot of women and and they are Jody. Does Jody do? Okay. No, she doesn't have that mentality. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but uh some are former CWU students that you know live here now and are in relationships and you know they're kind of grounded in the community, so super cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great intro. I we could we could probably just do this whole podcast just on your intro because you're a multifaceted guy. So you want to do a question?
Why Integrative Health Became The Mission
SPEAKER_04Well, let me before let me let me sort of follow up a little bit on the oh please on the the integrative health part. Yeah, so let's hear it. All of the sort of medical background treatment that I had was insufficient to help my wife get better after cancer treatment. And so um Jody and I were listening to this fitness podcast called Mind Pump. And um uh they had this guy on there named Dr. Steven Cabral. Okay, and uh listening to him uh just sort of lit me on fire because I'd been having this conversation with my students for 20 years, the pre-meds. Like, hey, if you can give somebody the right nutrition, why would you give them a pill if you can just help them change their diet? Like I had those conversations for a long time. Yeah. Um, and uh Dr. Cabral is like it was like, what? There's actually a community of people that think like I do. So I signed up uh the next day to become an integrative health practitioner, and every day just felt like a joy to be able to learn that. And then um that's what you're doing now in the community. That's right. And I I I say that I'm patient number one, like heart disease runs on both sides of my family, so how do I manage those things? I don't have issues, but I want to keep it that way. Um but the but Jody's patient number two. Okay, and so you always have to do stuff like fix yourself before you can do anything to anybody else. Imagine that. And so I know so uh so that was that was the big thing. Um, and we we took Jody, you know, chemo ravages your body, and we took her to better health than she'd ever had in her life.
SPEAKER_00Nice.
SPEAKER_04She lost 30 pounds of chemo weight, um, she's a fitness instructor at Jazzer Size, like over and over and over again. Everything was just starting to hit on all cylinders, and so um, and then I was like, there's probably a lot of people out there that want to live better longer. And so that that's what began the journey. Yeah. And so what's the name of your business? IQ Performance Health. Yeah, and then I have a physical clinic downtown at uh 301 2nd Avenue. Try by the library, it's right across from the library. Yeah, I'm in there with um with uh Robert Estes, who's uh one of the the owners, he's uh a dental professional and he also works. So why would someone want to come see you? Yeah, great question. You know, health is one of those things where it's like a slow burn. You you don't know that these little things are accumulating over your lifespan. Every day is a fork in the road. And you can take the shortcut or you can take the right cut. And when you accumulate enough of the shortcuts, that translates into things that you feel and decrease function on a variety of different levels. And if you take the right cut and you take more of those, your life will be better and you will live longer. And that's just a scientific fact. So that's not a guarantee. Like if you do all these things, there are some genetic components, but we used to think that genetics was this big thing. And it's really like only eight to fifteen percent of our biological. So that the great news is that we have a lot of behavioral control over the quality of our lives. So when you think about living and you think about the end of your life, which some people think about, what if you could add on another three to five years, maybe ten years? Of good living. Of good living. Yeah. What would that look like? How much richer would your life be? So we are about leveraging the science of how to do that. And um it's it's quite clear. And you have a website. I do, yeah, yeah. Iqperformancehealth.com.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. So so people can learn about it. Oh, yes, absolutely. Katrina's really enjoyed it. She's been a delight. She well, I'm biased. I know, but she is a delight.
SPEAKER_04Yes, she has an amazing sense of humor, and um, you know, the work that we did together was was fantastic, and that's really what it's all about. So I'm not driven by power and I'm not driven by money, I'm driven by service.
SPEAKER_01You know, I I'm glad you just said that because you're you're someone I like listening to you to, and you can tell pretty quickly with a guy like you that you you've got a lot of knowledge up here, and I've never felt like you're up here and I'm down here. I don't feel like that.
SPEAKER_04I've never felt like I don't feel like I'm better than anybody else.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Right? It's my job is to take the hard science to understand it fully and then to make it communicate but to to be able to communicate it to somebody in a way that they can use in their lives, and that they can receive it, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't I don't because a lot of people with a lot of knowledge they they're not able to communicate in a way that someone wants to receive it, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot of practitioners are like, I'm up here and you're down here, and it's like well it shows up in a in a lot of different ways, David.
SPEAKER_04So I'll give you an example, like and part of this is part of the medical, industrial, pharmaceutical insurance complex, yeah, which is a doctor is constantly pushed to turnover, turnover, turnover. So um, you know, it's just endemic in the system. And so, you know, the five to seven minutes that the doctor on average spends with a patient, I spend an hour with my clients. Yeah, and for me, it's about building a lifelong connection with that person. I have clients all over the country, some who have lots of money and some that have little money, and they all get treated with the same level of care and compassion. And my desire, genuine, authentic desire to help people live better longer. That's why it's my slogan live better longer.
SPEAKER_01And you you look great, you're physically in good health. I feel good. I'm turning 59 this year. How old are you? I'll be 58 this year. You wow, I think you probably get the same thing. I'm I'm fortunate, genetics or whatever, that you look great. Thank you. And we start hearing that from the young kids now. Of course. Oh, you look good for your age, right? Okay, let's do a question. And this is written, I'm gonna actually change a word here. It says you work with students every day, but I'm gonna say people. You work with people every day, and you also study health and performance from that scientific perspective. When you look at people today, humans, yeah, what patterns do you see in how they are approaching their health, energy, and well-being? There's no judgment here, but what do you see? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_04I you know, I'm glad you brought that up, David, because non-judgment is the first step.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_04So I have I have a few people who are actively in recovery.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Awesome. Yeah. And there's zero judgment, right? Yeah, the goal is to make vibrant health the thing that becomes more magnetized than whatever the substance is. And to do that in a way, you know, um, multiple people, I uh my youngest clients uh below 18, my oldest clients over 85, um, and everybody in between, uh, about 75 to 80 percent of my practice are women. And for some women, when they come in and they realize that there's an actual health space, yeah, right? Yeah that just there's sobbing, there's shoulders shaking, you know, because I'm not here to judge, I'm here to help. So I want to make sure that that's clear and conveyed. And um, you know, our our emotional mental state has a huge impact on our biology. Massive impact. So to be able to, you know, an integrative health practitioner works at all aspects of the human being, right? It's not just nutrition and diet, it's not just exercise, it's stress, toxin removal, rest and recovery, emotional balance, right? Using the best scientific tools that we have and success mindset and all of those things together help someone become the best and healthiest version of themselves. That's how we do it.
SPEAKER_01But when do you think our traditional healthcare system? Well, I guess I don't know. Has it ever been this? No, it's never been this. No, so we've never gone from a place of this to now what we are now, which is seven to eight minutes with your doctor, take a pill, I'll see you next time.
SPEAKER_04No, no, it's it's never really been like that. Although I don't want to paint everybody with the same brush. Certainly, there are doctors that are emotionally committed at that level, but the system is set up in such ways. So I teach pre-meds every every course, right? And uh I have students that are actively in med school right now, and I hear from them, hey Dr. Q, blah blah blah. Um, you know, you build those relationships and you know they they evolve over time, right? So I know what the medical school curriculum looks like. They get four years of pharmaceutical training, they get less than one day of nutrition training, less than one day.
SPEAKER_01And in my passion area of recovery from substance use disorders, I hear there's either nothing or like one day, right, on how to help someone find a life in recovery.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and I mean you're the shining example of that. Like what's possible in order to be able to do that? Yeah, you know, my father was addicted to everything there was to be addicted to. Yeah. And you see what how that can destroy lives on the front line, right?
SPEAKER_01And you think how do we come back from this not addiction, but from a healthcare system? Yeah, are we able to come back?
SPEAKER_04Not in the way, not in the way that um, you know, it it it all depends on what your need is. If your need is acute, you go to a doctor. Sure. Right? If you want to focus on health, I think you go to an integrative health practitioner.
SPEAKER_01And I'm I'm I I'm a guy when I I I love my doctor, but when I go, I'm prepared. And I'm not just gonna let him and and he's a good guy, he's actually a younger doctor, but I have a conversation, I have questions. Yeah, you know, I believe in my life in a balance, yes, an overall balance of things. The average person, though, that doesn't happen though, do you think? When you go to their doctor?
SPEAKER_04No, I I think ultimately in the United States that um integrative health will become the standard of care for health. You're hearing about it more. You hear about it a lot more.
SPEAKER_01Compass health. Is that that's a different way of getting your health care though, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think um people are recognizing that the word integrative health is carrying more water than it did before. And so more people are like, oh, I'm an integrative health.
SPEAKER_01You've never actually it's like treatment centers that say we're doing individualized care. Looks good on a pamphlet, but you get in and it's the same old, same. It's the same old, same old.
How To Show Up Prepared At The Doctor
SPEAKER_04Yeah, there's no one there's no one approach that I take with any two people. Every single person is different.
SPEAKER_01So what would you say to a person who's listening to this? What should they if they want to improve their health, just to, and this is actually a lot one of it, but when they go talk to their doctor or when they what questions should they ask?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'll give you an example. When I go to my doctor, and of course I have a doctor.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Okay, yeah, great. Yeah, uh well, I still want to get a a yearly checkup. Yep, right? Yep. So I don't have diagnostic tools like they have, like a MRI or that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_01I just got a full colonoscopy, right? I gotta go to my doctor, use health insurance, do all that, right?
SPEAKER_04Yep, go. And so um I again it's it's about complementing the things that are already happening with your primary care physician. Um, but they're they're not focused on your holistic health, they're focused on these sort of acute. I have a symptom, yeah, and this is how I'm gonna do it. And frequently they get on their phone. Yeah, what symptoms do you have? Yeah, right? So now they've got the AI's being infused now. So I have a little bit of a litmus test when I go in to a doctor and I'm like, this is gonna be a partnership. Yes, I'm not gonna just do what you say because you say it. Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you some questions and I want to see how you respond to them. And if I know more than about lipid metabolism, for example, than they do, that's a problem. Oh because they've gone to medical school.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Oh, wow, your bar's really high. Well, it that's for me. Yeah, yeah. Right? But here's my thing is are they gonna listen to me? Are they gonna if I feel like they're actually listening to me? Yes.
SPEAKER_04If they're not listening, then but again, I did it's it's not a commentary on whether or not they're good or bad people, right? It's it's the system.
SPEAKER_01It's my health care. I I don't it and I don't mean to sound brash, but I don't care what they think. I want to know are they actually gonna listen to my concerns?
SPEAKER_04I'll give you an example. Um, my doctor nagged me for the longest time. I want you to take a statin. Well, why? Well, your cholesterol's 220. Okay. Well, that's barely I mean, that's barely over the limit. Like, if I was running statistics, it might not even be significant. Why do you want me to take a statin? There's like eight statins. Which one do you want me to take and why do you want me to take it?
unknownRight?
Statins, Lipoprotein Trucks, And Heart Markers
SPEAKER_04And there's always this little bit of this hesitation, right? So, um so I put them off for a year, and they just kept nagging me about it. So I was like, alright, I'm gonna take a statin. So I started taking a statin. Okay, and then we were on a family vacation, and my muscles just felt achy in a weird way. And I was like, at first I was like, Am I just getting older? But it wasn't, it it felt off, it didn't feel like normal achy, like, oh, I go to the gym, hit it pretty hard, and I'm sore. It was a weird achy, it's hard to describe. And I remember I was sitting in Jody's in my bedroom in this place that we had, and I realized it was the statin. And I started swearing, I was so mad. Uh so I stopped taking it, and um and the and the muscle aches went away within two to three days. Uh and then I started digging for what what can you actually do? Yeah, what can you actually find out? So I'll get a little science-y here for just a second, but I'll I'll use terminology that.
SPEAKER_01I'm just gonna say it. So I'm listening because I'm on a Stanton. Okay. Because I was bugged, bugged, bugged, because my cholesterol was really high. Mm-hmm. Like dangerously high. Like, I don't know how high it was. I think 300? Could that be a number? And that's a high number. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Do you have familial hypercholesterolemia? I have no idea. That's that's a big word, but basically what it means is did you inherit high cholesterol in your family? Okay. A statin, okay. This is this is this is why I get irritated sometimes, is because imagine that you're trying to deliver a package to somebody's house. Right. Okay?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And you have eight different trucks of different sizes. Okay. The packages inside all of the trucks are the same. Okay. But the size of the truck different differs. Okay. I'm following. The packages are not any different. Right. Right? What really matters is the size of the truck. So what's in the truck is cholesterol and triglycerides.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_04And they have to be in a truck because they're fatty and you can't transport fatty things through water. They repel each other on an atomic level. Right? So you have to put them in a carrier. It's called a lipoprotein. It doesn't matter, but there's a thing that carries it around. And the size of that varies. Okay, okay. You see what I'm saying? So what's the size of mine? If it's the if if you have too many packages in the wrong-sized truck, when you get an injury in your artery, it can fit into that crack, bust, dump its contents in there, and then you get things like platelets, which are sticky, and then you get calcification, and you start to get a plaque. Right? And then your arteries start to close, and then that becomes an issue, right? Your blood pressure changes, whatever. So um statins reduce the number of packages. Okay. But they don't do anything about the truck. Oh. So I shouldn't it's not doing me any good? Not necessarily, but so I don't give medical advice. I don't give medical diagnoses or treatments. So I want to clear about it but but I want to, but I but I am a scientist, and um, so um Dr. Michael Lustig wrote a book called Metabolical. I recommend everybody read it. Um, it's a little science-y, but it's gonna really nail some things down. So, for example, one of the key ratios, let me back up. The HDL particle is one size truck. The LDL particle is a different size truck. That's the one we always hear you don't want to have bad. It's not bad cholesterol. Cholesterol is cholesterol, you have to have it. Why do they call it bad? Because it's the package, it's like saying the package in the truck is bad. No, it's the truck that's the problem.
SPEAKER_01We're back to the truck. Interest.
SPEAKER_04You see what I'm saying? So so there are like eight size different, like there's very large or you know, very high density lipoproteins, really big ones, and there are really small ones. We spend this time focused on two of the suite of particles that are available. So what we really need to look at is the ratio of our triglycerides to our HDL. Dr. Lustig, he's a medical doctor, he's a he's a So stop focusing on these, focus on this other area. It's one of the and the other thing you need to do when you go to your doctor is ask for two additional markers to be added to your panel. I always ask for my panel. I want all the information for sure, but they don't include these as a matter of course, even though the research shows that they're two of the most associated with heart disease, which are apoprotein B and lipoprotein little A. Those are very technical words, so I'll say them again. Apoprotein, apolipoprotein B, and lipoprotein little A. If you ask for those two things to be added to your panel, they will add those two things. They give you a better indication of the association with heart disease. But the question then is if you have really high cholesterol or you have plaques already, like what can you do about that? Statins don't do very much for existing plaques. Like 13%. That's not very much. But there is a natural enzyme called natokinase, which is shown in double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical studies to reduce arterial plaques by 36.6%.
SPEAKER_01But those aren't sold by pharmaceutical.
SPEAKER_04They are not. They're cheap. They don't make millions of dollars. They do not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. But a statin is making millions of. Some people think that statins should be put in the in the municipal water supply. Really? Yes. As if there's not already enough pharmaceuticals in our water supply.
Cutting Through Online Health Noise
SPEAKER_01To another question. I think we could talk all day. This is just fascinating. Let's do it. Uh students and honestly a lot of adults are constantly, like constantly bombarded with health advice online. Totally. Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01From your perspective, we've getting we're getting to know this guy, it's like, wow, like and you talk in a way that it's it's receptable. Like you're talking big words, big language, but uh I'm able to listen, so I think others are too. I don't know. From your perspective, as a researcher and educator, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about nutrition, fitness, and sustainable health? What are those big misconceptions? What's the misinformation they're getting?
SPEAKER_04I I mean most of it. If it comes from social media, uh it's probably I mean, it it always depends on the source. For example, if an 18-year-old is giving nutrition and fitness advice, I love 18-year-olds, I work with them all the time, but they don't necessarily know very much. And an 18-year-old's physiology is nothing like someone who's in middle and upper middle age, right? It's they're just not the same.
SPEAKER_01I mean, does the machine And anyone can jump on now and be a nutritionist, right? Right. So that's that's an issue.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, for me, like what ultimately determines it for me, being a professional scientist is for me, it's about the data. So what do we do to get the data? We do functional medicine lab testing. And it used to be even when Katrina was doing them, they were a lot more expensive. I have a lab right now that I can deliver to people for$147. It's a tenth of what it was. So economy of scale definitely helps with that. It doesn't have the full suite, but it has the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01But you're going back, so going back, you gotta look at the data. You have to look at the data, you have to look at what your body's actually saying.
SPEAKER_04Yes, because you're feel the how you feel on a daily basis is sort of digital. It's I feel fine or I don't feel fine, right? But it's like it's like a duck on the surface of the water. Things look calm on the surface, but below they can be going crazy. And what you want to avoid is the accumulation of problems. Because then you start to rise to the level of I feel it, and now there's a problem. Well, what if we could do small things? Like make some small changes to your diet and change your exercise profile, right? And um get rid of some of the toxicity that's in your body. Like we can measure all of those things. We can measure not only before you do anything, but after, so you can see how much you've changed over time. And we have multiple people, including in our community, where we have repeat data and we can see exactly how much they have improved.
SPEAKER_01So, what are some of the other misconceptions or misinformation about fitness?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I mean, just fitness is part of it, so let's maybe think about the whole is there's so many things that you can do that don't cost any money at all.
SPEAKER_01I'm a believer, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Um sleep is medicine.
SPEAKER_01Yes, Jesus, yes.
SPEAKER_04You have to you have to get enough sleep, and it has to be the right quality sleep. Yes. There's so many things that happen when you sleep, deep sleep, first half of the night, sort of REM sleep, and the second the dreaming part is in the second half, you go through these cycles, and you need like five cycles. Um and you know, your brain needs time to be able to wash itself in the first part, um, to clear working while we're sleeping.
SPEAKER_01Very much so. Uh it I preach about for people who are changing their life or you know, in early recovery, what I think you need to focus on right out of the gate is getting consistent sleep every day of the week. It's essential. Cause consistent, like getting up and going to bed at the same time every day.
SPEAKER_04It's very good advice. And I would say the other thing that you can do if your cycle is off, and I don't mean menstrual cycle, I mean like your day-night rhythm is on a day like today, especially. Uh huh. Get up and within the first 30 minutes go outside if it's not too cold. Even if it's too cold. Yeah, but but I mean I'm I'm always thinking barefoot, right? Oh, okay. So barefoot would be ideal is to get your feet on the planet, um, and then also to be able to get uh don't look at the sun, obviously, but get natural light in your eyeballs. It has this huge hormonal cascading effect that syncs your body and your physiology up to the day.
SPEAKER_01And and and how much does that cost?
SPEAKER_04It costs nothing. No, it costs nothing.
SPEAKER_01I am ritualistic, like me and Katrina both about getting up at the same time and going to bed at the same time damn near every day. And the first thing you're gonna love this. The first thing I do when I get out of bed is open all the blinds and the curtains. It's a great idea. To start getting, and that was actually for me kind of an antidepressant because I used to keep it all closed and blah. And then I go on a morning walk every day, Ian. Every day.
SPEAKER_04That's a really every day. That's that's what we call, David, habit stacking. Yes. So not only are you not only are you getting the the light in your eyes, right? And try and avoid like sunglasses, right? Um, but getting that light, um, the windows do block some of that, you know, that helpful UV. Um, so getting outside is valuable, um, even for just 15 minutes or so. Yeah. And then going for a walk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Going for so I'll I'll just give your listeners a really easy way to be able to help control um your blood sugar, right? So I have a lot of people who have type 2, or at least they were moving towards type 2, and then we sort of move them away. The reason why people do that is because they become less sensitive to insulin, which is the key that unlocks the door that allows sugar to go into your cells. If it doesn't do that, it stays in your blood. And when it stays out there, then you have high blood sugar, right? So you want your body to be sensitive to insulin. So here's two things you can do super easy. After you eat lunch, go for a 15-minute walk. It's gonna reduce the insulin spike, it's gonna make your body more sensitive. And then the other thing is if you do that after dinner, also, which the Italians call a passeggiata, which is uh just an evening walk that they always do. Um, both of those things can help improve your body's um responsiveness to insulin. Oh, thank you. Doesn't cost anything. That's beautiful. Also, spacing your meals out helps a lot.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, spacing your I pay attention to what I I always say it's about balance, paying attention to how much sugar and caffeine you're putting in your body. I know you're also you need to pay attention to a whole bunch of other things. Yeah. But there are simple things to do. There are, and I'm gonna start doing that. Like uh I like to eat light, I don't like to eat any heavy meal, but sometimes I'll eat and then take a nap. And what you're saying is eat, go for a walk, and then maybe take a nap.
SPEAKER_04The reason why you're taking a nap is because um your insulin is probably a little bit higher, so your energy goes. What's a habit for me? I love my naps. And it's not a long nap. I'm not I'm not saying naps are bad. I'm not saying naps are bad, but I'm glad you're not saying that.
SPEAKER_01I would have to ask you to leave. But I love I'm gonna go back though. I I think what you just said is a powerful thing because a lot of society, what do we do when we eat? We sit, we scroll on our phone, we watch TV, or we go to sleep. And you're saying you can do something really simple.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Go for a walk.
SPEAKER_04Your blood goes to two places basically, right? It either goes to your core or it goes to your extremities. And if you don't do anything, it's going to your core. If you're if you're amped up, it's gonna go out, it's gonna go away from your gut, right? If you're eating, the blood comes from the outside and focuses more on your gut so that you digested.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04Right? We have limited energy. Yeah, so if you think of blood on some level as where's the energy go? We it's it's defined, right? We have a defined amount of these things. So, where are the resources gonna go? They're gonna go where the function is needed. So, outside, okay. If I'm gonna run and jump and do all that stuff, I need the blood on the outside in my muscle. If I'm gonna digest and relax, I need the blood to come in.
SPEAKER_01See?
unknownThis is great.
SPEAKER_01You've spent a lot of time just in this conversation, and you do it really well. I just want you to recognize that you are a really smart guy. Like, I'm putting you up here, like, wow, like you really understand this shit, but you say it in a way that while it might be a little bit hard to comprehend, I want to comprehend it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you know, too often scientists are trying to baffle people with their bullshit. That's not the goal. Yeah, the goal of science is to serve, to explore, to discover, and then it's ultimately to serve. That's my opinion. Yeah, right. Um, my scientific ethics are not for sale, right? Some scientists are, we see it all the time, right? Whether it's you know, Oppenheimer and you know, the development of an atom bomb, whatever, like you know, or uh, you know, there's a million pharmaceuticals. There's there's a million examples of that, right? Um, mine are not for sale, and so my my mantra, my drive on a daily basis is service to people, and the best sort of reward that I get from that is seeing someone's life just flourish and improve, right? Just to get better and flourish, and then every day that you see them, right? You ever seen that movie Doc Hollywood back in the 80s with Michael J. Fox?
SPEAKER_01Oh god, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Right. He he comes to this town and like he's this hotshot guy, and I'm not saying I'm a hotshot guy, I'm I don't feel that way at all, but but what I love about that movie is by the end he realizes it's all about the community, it's all about the people, yeah, and it's all about what he can do to help people, and that's really where I'm at. And so um that's the best, is just to see my neighbors and my my community members. Um, you know, we live here, we love it here, and let's help each other. Let's help each other, yeah.
Ultra-Processed Food And Daily Health Decisions
SPEAKER_01Yeah, okay. Last question for you, and then we're gonna close it up with two closing questions. Okay. You've spent a lot of time translating these really complex scientific ideas and equations really into practical strategies. They have to be, yeah. Yeah. When you think about the people you teach along the way, the people like when you're you and I are having this conversation, when you interact with people and you're able to teach, what's one lesson about health or behavior change that you really hope they carry with them long after they leave that conversation with you?
SPEAKER_04Yeah. You have to realize that your biological destiny is largely in your own hands. Yeah. And if you want you the your the quality of your life will be a direct reflection of the daily decisions that you make.
SPEAKER_01And and it's now, it's not 10 years from now when you leave college or when you get the new girl or you get the new it's now what we're doing now.
SPEAKER_00Today, yeah, two-day.
SPEAKER_04And you know, the the challenge that people have, and one of the things that they they they hire me for is to help them translate. How do I change my day? How do I change my nutrition? I don't even know what to eat. Like these people say keto, and this person lost all that weight, and they don't realize that their liver and their kidneys are paying the price, right? And but they can't feel those things, so they're like, no, I'm fine, I feel great. Well, you're not supposed to eat butter and bacon every single day because you will get heart disease, and that's just gonna happen for the vast majority of people. The other thing I would say is your DNA is not your destiny. Just because you have two bad copies of a gene and they don't make functional enzymes does not mean that you're gonna die earlier. You could purport you, it's it is a higher probability if you do nothing. I'll give you an example. Stephen Cabral has lost the genetic lottery on just about everything. He has all kinds of metabolic issues, and yet he is the picture of health. Why is that? It's because he gives his body the things that it needs even when his body doesn't make it. It's really that simple. What do you want your life to be like? Have a picture of what you want your life to be like, not just today, but a year, five years, ten years, twenty, thirty, fifty years down the road. What do you want it to look like? Do you want it to be in sickness in 1990? Four to five percent of the population had type 2 diabetes.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_04In 2026, 43%. Oh my god. 43%. You think that's an accident? And we're not heading away from that, are we? No, we're not. We're going, it's going up, right? Obesity is going up, right? So if there's one thing uh that your audience could do to be able to improve their lives, reduce the amount of ultra-processed foods. If you do not do that, your body will be inflamed 24/7, and it will lead to a variety of different inflammation-based diseases like heart disease, cancer, type 2 diabetes, Alzheimer's, dementia. Nobody wants that.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_04Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay. Uh I I I'm gonna ask it. Um, what's your view? Um, because I have my views, but mine are just limited to my views on diets and fads. You're a scientist. What's your view on what is it, GLP one? Are they just giving themselves shots?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I'm so glad you're asking this. Our bodies already make GLP1. Yeah. Like if this is working, people are losing weight. They are indeed. So what's happening biologically? Read the box. It literally says on the side of the box can cause complications, medical complications like thyroid cancer. And we don't, we're not gonna know because it's so new. Until if you're morbidly obese, you're two, three, four hundred pounds overweight, it's probably the right tool, at least initially. Sure, right? But for people who want to lose, uh so I'll give I I have a client who used to be a CW student, came to one of my seminars and early 40s, and I was like, I've always had a super direct relationship with this person, and I said, What's wrong with you? And they said, What do you mean? And I said, You're gonna be dead in 10 years. They clocked in at 295 pounds, they could barely move. And I said, Is this what you want your life to be like? Because from here to the end of your life is long and slow and suffering, it's filled with suffering. Is that what you want? So she became a client, she lost 70 pounds in seven months. Wow, GLP won? No, all natural, really, yes, diet, uh hardly even any exercise, honestly. Um, just wasn't there yet. Um, but um mostly, mostly nutritional changes, re-educating about nutrition. And here's the thing, David, nobody wants to sit on the couch and eat a dry bag of broccoli. Like, that's not what I'm talking about. How Jodi is exceptional at this, which is how can we make really nutritious food really delicious? Like, how do we do that? She's very creative in the way that she approaches those things. We wrote a cookbook, so if people do it like a functional medicine detox with us, that is included as part of that so that people understand what do I eat? It's not just here's my list of carbs, here's my proteins, here's my fat. It's like, what can I eat? Well, how about these yummy things right here? And then people continue those things after the fact.
SPEAKER_01So, all right, here we go. Parting questions. If someone listening right now feels stuck, whether it's with their health, their habits, or just the direction of their life, what would you want them to hear today? Don't be afraid.
SPEAKER_04Don't be afraid to grab onto the life that you really want. You don't have to settle. You don't have to suffer. Like humans, there's a lot of suffering everywhere.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_04Why add to the pile when you don't have to? A lot of this is just about re-educating, about pointing people in the right direction. I don't make any people's decisions for them. I'm the guide. I'm like, okay, let's try this. Oh, that's not working, let's try this. Um that's that's my purpose. That's my goal is to be an educator, yeah, right, and to be a motivator and to provide the structure that people need in order to be able to achieve those goals. But don't be afraid. You know, don't be afraid to change because if you don't change, life will force it on you anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and with health, I think we see that happen. Yes, absolutely for sure. Yeah, mental health for sure, drugs and alcohol for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yes, yeah, yeah, those are all things that mess with us. Like, um, I say this all the time. I used to drink a little bit, I'm not a big drinker, but I used to drink more wine, maybe two glasses a week, maybe.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_04But I almost never drink anymore. And the reason for that is because I feel so good on a daily basis that even when I have the smallest amount of alcohol, my body can feel it. And I'm like, why? Yeah. So when I go out, I get more mocktails and stuff like that. Um it's just much more enjoyable. I drink kombucha pretty much every day. Um, you know, and and so when your body feels people people that are listening have pretty they they have little idea about how much better they can feel. And when they start to feel that much better, everything else in life feels more possible.
Recovery, Connection, And Safe Vulnerability
SPEAKER_01That's great. That is really good. Okay, we're wrapping this up. What's a question you've always wanted to ask me?
SPEAKER_04What was the what was the trigger for you to where you decided I'm not gonna spiral down anymore and I'm gonna spiral up instead? That's good.
SPEAKER_01I chuckle a little because I'm not sure I could have spiraled much further down. Now, with that said, I could have. But into a pine box or a jail cell for a long time because that's where I was headed. Um but I, you know, as we're sitting here talking about your focus, which is on people's integrated overall physical health, which is a lot of your focus, I've been thinking about, you know, people who turn their lives around going from active addiction to recovery. You know, and I I was at a point in the mid-90s where it's like it was it was either, you know, I was gonna die or be in prison for a very long time. And then it was right here in this town. This is my anniversary month, uh, 19 years this month. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, that I was in a mental health crisis. I had a business downtown that was financially a wreck. A lot of people think it was because I returned to use that it was no, it was before that. Um so that was an amplifier, not a cause. Yes, absolutely. But the and I was going through a divorce, my dog, your dog guy, the dog I had at the time, I had to put him down at a young age. Um death by a thousand cuts. Yeah, yeah. And I remember it was right over here on Third Street, and being in my little duplex, just wanting to take one more hit, and maybe it would blow my heart up. I remember thinking that, right? Um, so that's just my experience, and so it was like I've got to do something different. Um, and as we've been talking, I have a life today that I is I like living. It's like E hearp. I have a life today worth living. I've created a life today that I want 100%, right? And um, so those were two of my points along the way. I've had other many other points where I just go, I I want better. I'm a dad. That's that's like been my key role. I want to be someone my son looks at and goes, not I want to be like him, but I want someone to follow. Now being a grandfather, I went down and watched Anthony at his first track meet, you know, discus, and I hung out there for five hours because that's what you do at those things. Oh yes, but I think I get to be present in my life today. Um, so that's kind of the flip side of it, but uh yeah, does that answer your question?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it does. It's it's always uh amazing to me how you know you people talk about hitting rock bottom, but there's gotta be this moment of sort of crystallizing of there's a simple choice, there's a fork in the road. Yeah, there's death, incarceration this way, and there's vitality this way.
SPEAKER_01It's the same in health. It it is because I've thought of it a few times as we've had this conversation. The opposite of addiction is connection in a nutshell, that's it. I have I haven't thought about drinking or smoking crack or pot or any substance in a long time. Why? Because I feel connected to the world around me.
SPEAKER_04I think uh if if I could, please. I think that there is a level of vulnerability that must be present in order for that to take place. And that and you seem to have embraced that.
SPEAKER_01And that level of vulnerability, and that's why I'm glad you're here, is because I've had people, places along the way who have allowed that to happen with no judgment, no stigma, uh uh a safe, like we we beat people up because well, why don't they just change their lives? Do they have a roof over their head? Do they feel safe where they're sleeping? Do they have access? You're gonna love this. Do they have access to health care, to mental health care, to a dentist? Like little basic, not just acute care, but so I've been afforded those opportunities that have given me this the space to be vulnerable. Now, years later, I I say that I don't care what people think, but I do, but I want this for others, just like you want physical health for others, and just overall we're we're the same. That's why I do what I do, yeah. But does going back though, to for someone who's struggling with addiction to be vulnerable, that space has to be available to them. You know, and that that's why 12-step programs can be that space, or it could be a religious organization, or it can just be another human in a position of power, I say a lot of times, could be a probation officer, could be a law enforcement, could be a doctor who looks at them without judgment, who looks at them and does like I know what you would do, like let's talk about it. Then they can be vulnerable. We're in a system just like with healthcare that is fraught with issues, with addiction, it's stigmatized, it's moralized, it's judged more than any other behavioral health condition out there. I have no doubt. Right? So that that's why I'm vulnerable. It goes way back for me that there, and and even to this day, that there are people, places, and things along the way that have given me the space to be able to be vulnerable. This has been great, really good.
SPEAKER_03Okay.