Shame Does Not Change People, Connection Does w/guest Joelle Dickerson

Shame is a blunt instrument, and we keep swinging it like it’s going to solve addiction, mental health crises, and crime. This conversation with Joelle Dickerson flips that logic on its head and gets practical about what actually helps people change when they’re court-involved, struggling with substance use, or carrying years of untreated trauma.

We talk about how one traumatic event can redirect a whole life toward service, and how Joelle’s work in victim advocacy, probation, and offender therapy shaped a trauma-informed approach that’s both compassionate and firm. You’ll hear why “shame and guilt never work” isn’t a slogan, it’s a pattern you can see from childhood labels in school all the way to adult behavior in the criminal justice system. We also dig into the idea that every behavior has a function, anger is often secondary, and real progress starts when someone feels safe enough to be honest.

Then we widen the lens to community. Most incarcerated people come home, which means reentry support, behavioral health treatment, housing stability, and skill-building aren’t soft options, they’re public safety strategies. We wrestle with common misconceptions about offenders, the human cost of writing people off, and why connection is the opposite of addiction. We end with a message of hope built on small acts anyone can do, because the mental health system can’t carry this alone.

If you care about addiction recovery, criminal justice reform, trauma-informed care, and building safer communities, hit play. Subscribe, share this with someone who works in helping professions, and leave a review with the biggest myth you want to see replaced.

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Transcript

Welcome And A Book Plug

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Uh okay, here we go. Let's do this. Uh welcome to Deep Dive with Dr. D. I'm excited to be here on this uh not too windy Sunday morning. A little chilly. The heat was on this morning. Um, but yesterday was windy, stupid windy, but a little warmer. Okay. Enough of the weather report like you care about that. I'm here with Joel Dickerson today. I'm excited to uh have a conversation with her. Um, here is my shameless plug for my book. Uh I call it the short story of the wild ride of my life. The title of the book is Grit Over Shame, and it's available wherever you buy books. You can get it locally in Ellensburg at Gerald's and Pearl Street Books. Gerald's will deliver it to your door in the Ellensburg area if you order it online from him. And then, of course, you can get it at all the uh other places: Amazon, as an ebook, and as an audiobook. And uh, you and I have had conversations about this book, and this is your copy. Thank you. Um enjoy. Uh I've heard people say they sat down and read it in one setting because one, it's not long, and it really tells uh in a pretty good way the wild ride of my life. Um I like to ask a couple questions of friends if they're willing after you read it. So um let me know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:16

Um I like uh stories that are based on a true story.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Yeah, it's yeah, it's it's pretty true. It's pretty wild. Um so welcome. I'm glad you're here. Thank you. Um you and I have talked about getting you on the show for a few months and uh got you on the calendar. Um I've appreciated um getting to know you. I'm gonna get to know you a little more. Um as I said, pre- you know, where this will start recording is I met your husband before I met you. Your husband and I are brothers in life, just you know, brothers from different mothers and fathers. Um but we, you know, we have some similar life stuff. Um and I think when you said people are just drawn to him, I think for some people uh that have been through life, not that this has to be that we look at life through a different lens. And um, you know, when I look at someone struggling, I know you're I know Andre does this too. We don't, you know, certainly everyone judges, but we just look at things differently.

SPEAKER_05 2:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Okay, so love him, love you, love your family, the girls. How old are the girls?

SPEAKER_07 2:24

Um, I've got a 12-year-old daughter, a six-year-old daughter, and a five-year-old son.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah, you guys are busy.

SPEAKER_07 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

What's your son's name?

SPEAKER_07 2:34

Kingston.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Oh what a great name.

SPEAKER_07 2:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:37

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 2:38

There was a viral video um a couple years ago of this kid and his dad on the couch, and they were watching a sports game, and the kid was a toddler or baby, and he was talking and sort of having this conversation with dad, and dad posted it, and the kid's name was Kingston. And I I remember watching that going, That's a cool name.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

That is a really cool name. Yeah. Yeah. Kingston. Yeah, very good. Okay, so uh before we jump into the questions, I always like to have every guest introduce themselves. It's the only question I don't give guests before

Joelle’s Story And Love Story

SPEAKER_01 3:11

because I kind of want it to be more natural, as natural as can be. Tell anyone listening that doesn't know Joelle about Joelle, who you are, uh, whatever you're comfortable sharing, um, where you're from, your family, your work life, whatever you're comfortable sharing.

SPEAKER_07 3:26

Okay. Uh I grew up in eastern Washington, and then I moved to Ellensburg in 2007. So I've been here, what, what is that, 18, 19 years? A little while something.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yeah. Um 19 years, because that's the year this is uh my 19th year in recovery.

SPEAKER_07 3:44

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Yeah, good.

SPEAKER_07 3:46

Uh yeah, and so I moved here and originally I wanted to go to UW and I didn't get accepted, and I had a pretty good GPA, and so I thought, what is going on here? Like I didn't really understand the path or the plan. And then I applied to Central and I found out like right away that I got in. And so I was like, okay, this is kind of naturally opening the door. And um I came here, got two bachelor's degrees, always knew that I wanted to get a master's degree.

SPEAKER_02 4:14

What in degree?

SPEAKER_07 4:14

Uh I have a degree in criminal justice with a specialty in corrections. Okay. And then I have a degree in psychology.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Oh, yeah. Good works. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 4:22

And so, and I came with an AA. Um Spokane Falls Community College. I went to school on a full ride golf scholarship.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Whoa. Oh. Okay, okay, good for you. Yeah. Cool.

SPEAKER_07 4:35

So I was able to, and I had some academic scholarships, and so most of my first two years were kind of taken care of, covered. Plus, you get the AA, it's easier to transfer. Dive right in. Um so I came here, and um the funny thing is I met my husband. I had been here what six months. We met each other in the spring of 2008.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

And he was going to school here.

SPEAKER_07 4:56

Yeah, and we've been together ever since.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Really? Yeah. What was his degree? What was he studying?

SPEAKER_07 5:01

Uh, biology and chemistry. So his plan was to go to med school. Yeah. Really? Oh my gosh. And what most people don't know is he has a master's in medical administration. So he could like run a hospital if he wanted to. But then he also loved the higher ed, and we kind of got to a place where we realized he could go to medical school, but we would probably miss out on like our kids' lives. I would be basically be a single parent with residency.

SPEAKER_04 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:23

And then we also thought, um, you know, I I so we finally got to a place where we're both like this, where we could pick 10 careers. Like I could be a history teacher, I would love to be a graphic artist for Pixar, but you gotta pick one. And so um I said, we gotta pick. And so he was like, I really love students and I want to do higher ed. And so he just got his PhD in March. And we go to his graduation in July.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Oh, you do, yeah, yay! Yeah, uh, doctor. Oh, this is this is great. Okay, so so I'm curious now. So your your major and you came right in into your major, law and justice, right? So he's here and he's doing biochem.

SPEAKER_07 6:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

How would you guys meet?

SPEAKER_07 6:02

Uh we actually it's a funny story. Yeah. Um, we met at Lily's.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Okay. Lily's. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:12

Um, but that was the place where college students hung out and stuff. And I remember that I had gone to sort of a house party with some friends, and I was standing in front. It was winter, and I remember this because walking in, there was like two feet of snow.

SPEAKER_06 6:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_07 6:27

And I was standing by the fireplace trying to get warm, but I was blocking everybody else from the from the warmth. Sure. And he he remembered saying, Who does this woman think she is?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Nice. I gotta meet her.

SPEAKER_07 6:39

And I'm totally oblivious to it too.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

That's funny.

SPEAKER_07 6:43

So yeah, we ended up having a lot of mutual friends and just connected that way.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

And so he came up to you.

SPEAKER_07 6:50

Yeah, he did. And at first I was kind of like, I don't know about you. And I remember that he had um given me his phone number, and I was kind of like, yeah, maybe. And then his friend lived in the same dorms that I did.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

This is 2008?

SPEAKER_07 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

So MySpace?

SPEAKER_07 7:07

Facebook was just starting. Yes, probably.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

We're still mostly texting and calling.

SPEAKER_07 7:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:13

And then there was like, I think AOL, maybe like. A little bit was still hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:18

Yeah. It was, yeah. And Facebook, you're right, Facebook was just starting. And you had to be, I think at that time, when Facebook first started, you had to be at a four-year institution. Um, because I remember being in community college going, I want to do this, and you couldn't do it. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Um, and so But so, so uh, I'm always curious about love stories. So you meet this guy, you know, at this this fire or whatever's going on at this party, and he approaches you and you exchange numbers. Yeah. So you thought enough that, yeah, I'll give this guy my number. Yeah. Did he reach out to you or did you reach out to him?

SPEAKER_07 7:52

I you know what's funny? I think I tried to reach out to him and this this girl answered. And I remember thinking, What? What? It's actually one of his best friends. He's also a stupid. But I didn't know this at the time. Like, oh no, okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Oh, you called and a girl answered. So then I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_07 8:09

So then yeah, it's one of his really good friends, and she had he left his phone with her and she had picked it up. So that was that whole thing. And it was funny because I ended up running into him. I was I lived in some dorms, the North Campus dorms, I forget what they were called.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 8:25

The ones that are like way over by where that climbing thing used to be. Um, yeah. Yeah, they're kind of orangey red. Yeah. Um, and so I lived over there, and his friend did, and I remember my roommate was out of town. I was bored out of my mind. I was taking a basket of laundry to the laundry room, and I saw them cut pulling up. They had gone shopping in Yakima, and I thought, there's that guy again. I wonder what they're doing this weekend. Oh, and so I called him and they said you can tag along with us. And so we went and had fun all weekend, and I was like, Okay. And then that was and then I got the flu, and he brought me soup and took care of me and showed up, and that was the that was the deal breaker. Yeah. Yeah. That was it.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

That's super cool.

SPEAKER_07 9:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

And then so um, you know, Katrina and I, we so you guys met at college.

SPEAKER_03 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Um, started dating.

SPEAKER_07 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

And when did he how soon after did he propose?

SPEAKER_07 9:13

Uh he proposed in 2010.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 9:16

And then we got married in 2012.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Oh. When?

SPEAKER_07 9:19

Uh, June.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 9:21

So our anniversary is the 16th.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Okay. June.

SPEAKER_07 9:23

Yeah. And that's our dating anniversary also. Um that made it nice and clean. But we got married in Jamaica by ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 9:30

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:30

Just headed down there and there's a lot of um family members that were like divorced or kind of some chaos, and we were like, if we have a wedding and try to invite everybody, it might be a lot. And so we were like, let's try to just have it be about us because that's it, that is what it's about. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Good old family.

SPEAKER_07 9:50

You know, and there's something to be said about like um, I don't think the most elaborate weddings necessarily last the longest. I've gone to weddings that I know had a big ticket price. Yeah. I went to a wedding on a yacht and it lasted a couple of months. Yeah. You know, um, because it's just it's about the commitment, it's about the people, it's about, you know, more than that. So yeah.

unknown 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

So Katrina and I were married the same year, September. Okay. Um, that's cool, 2012. So you guys have been together a while and you have three kids.

SPEAKER_07 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Um, work life.

SPEAKER_07 10:23

Oh boy. So a little bit about me that some people don't know is that when I went to college uh in Swokan, my goal was to be a physical therapist. So

Trauma That Changed Her Career

SPEAKER_07 10:33

that's what I was in school for. And I had a really good friend um that was on my golf team that I was with uh at an office party, and I ended up getting drugged and then attacked by her coworkers. And that changed the trajectory of everything in my life. And so um, one of the big things was how it was handled was really poorly, from law enforcement to victim advocate to all that stuff. I just didn't feel supported or cared about, and it it kind of clicked a switch in me of like get mad or change the system. Um and so that's what started everything else. Okay, and so when I came here, I was really all about um I went to a victim advocate training and I was really into I helped out with the um safe club. I don't even know if it's still there. I don't know. Sexual assault victims awareness or I'm not sure something. And we used to go around and educate the community and stuff, and then we had this event called Rock Against Rape. I helped do the first one. Yeah, yeah. I was working in the wellness center and helped that. Oh and just really poured into the community and trying to figure out how to help people that were victims. Do you know Doug? Fulp. Yes, yeah, yeah. Actually, we just did a training together to do um adverse childhood experience training. Yeah, perfect. So I'm gonna be doing that a little bit in the community. And so I just really poured into like victims and all that stuff. Well, that was nice because I was volunteering at Aspen, and then there was a job opening right as I was graduating, like literally June of 2009. And I got both degrees in two years. I took 23 credits a quarter.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Oh my oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_07 12:06

Yeah, I actually you actually get fined for doing that, um, taking extra credits because you're supposed to take a certain amount.

SPEAKER_06 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 12:13

And so um, I just really wanted to get out, and then the economy was like, you can remember 2008 to 2010 was a horrible time to graduate.

SPEAKER_05 12:20

It was.

SPEAKER_07 12:21

Um, and so I got out and I was working with victims and really pouring into that, and I did that for a little while, and then I started working with homeless people in the community, really helping try to understand again that like how did we get here and how can I help and all that stuff. But the goal was always to be in the criminal justice system, it was always to be giving therapy to people that were in that realm. And so I ended up uh doing I was a probation officer for six years in Yakima. Oh, yeah. Okay, and I worked with a lot of gang offenders, I worked with like a lot of youth, and it was a lot of I mean, people don't understand that we're just out there in the field. Like, I don't carry a weapon, I don't have half the time nobody knew where I was. I'd be out, you know, in the middle of nowhere, and I'd be like, Okay, please don't bury me in the backyard. Wow. Um, but I I got to teach anger management, I got to really see how we can be preventative rather than reactive in the criminal justice system, and it was really, really great. And then after that, I was getting my master's during that time and I started doing family counseling, and I had a contract with like CPS and different entities to figure out okay, what are these family dynamics that are happening at home? Because I grew up in a home where what was happening wasn't really what you saw on the outside, and I think a lot of families are like that. Like, let's kind of get our bow ties straightened out when we leave the door, but that's not really the reality.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

My mom always had a very clean house.

SPEAKER_07 13:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

So if you were to come in as strange, you'd be like, oh, everything's fine, everything's great here. No.

SPEAKER_07 13:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

No, it wasn't.

SPEAKER_07 13:59

Yes. And I grew up in like a middle class family where like and I I remember this too, like, even when I would go to school meetings to talk about the youth I was working with, I would say, like, don't assume that kids that are poor or kids that have been in trouble or kids that are whatever, their parents aren't showing up to IEPs or whatever, that those are the only kids that are at risk. There are kids that are not gonna tell you the horrors that they're experiencing right now, kept secret, and they're trying to function every day. That's what's incredible to me. Yeah, is they still go to school every day and show up because they want to be there. And we talked about that adult in your life that makes a difference. And so the goal was always to counsel offenders, but just getting the degree, getting the experience, seeing both sides of the coin. And so now I am a therapist for offenders, and so I get to work with people with all types of crime. There's not a crime I haven't worked with, and just trying to help them be in society.

SPEAKER_01 14:59

Yeah. You might have told me, and so thank you for that. So um, you know, I love your family. Uh, I've known you guys for almost the entire time. Well, no, when did so when did Andre start working on campus?

SPEAKER_07 15:14

Well, he had a couple jobs. He was first in admissions, and that was like 200 maybe 11.

SPEAKER_05 15:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 15:22

And then he left and he worked for hospice. And then he yeah, he was a director of hospice friends.

SPEAKER_05 15:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 15:28

And then he came back, I want to say maybe 2016, 2015. Yeah. That would be when I met him. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

So yeah, okay. So thank you. Uh and and uh, you know, I know family's important to you, and and you oh, and uh so you guys, let me see how my memory goes. So you guys came to Ellensburg, you left, came back, left, and came back. Is that accurate?

Moving Away And Needing Community

SPEAKER_07 15:55

Uh we just left once.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

You just to Arizona, right?

SPEAKER_07 15:57

Yeah, we went to Arizona for a year. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Then we went to Arizona. So you guys, so when you graduated, you guys stayed.

SPEAKER_07 16:02

Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

You you okay, and then then I because I remember when he left. I was sad. I was like, Yeah, yeah. Just like, oh my gosh. So you guys went to Arizona, and how long were you down there?

SPEAKER_07 16:11

A year.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Just a year. Yeah. You're like, nope, not working. We're coming.

SPEAKER_07 16:17

And the number one being I'm not big on heat. I like the four seasons, I like um just the diversity of people, I like different things, and it was hard down there. Yeah, and then it's hard too because what people don't talk about in moving is like relationships we have with people in the community. Like, that takes time to trust people, to have those relationships. If you're new to a community, that takes years to get to the point where I trust this person and I care about this person, and that was hard when you're new because nobody knows you don't have any credibility with anybody, especially big city, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah, it makes it even more it's doable, but it takes. I'm glad you said that because me and Katrina, we go to Arizona every year in the spring when it's perfect weather.

SPEAKER_04 17:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

Um, and one of the things we always say about Arizona is, yeah, we couldn't handle the heat. But I I'm glad you said that because you've said that to me twice now. You know, we we don't consider when we're thinking, oh, I want to move somewhere else, that you have to redo all your relationships in the community.

SPEAKER_07 17:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

And that takes time.

SPEAKER_07 17:23

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

That takes a lot of time.

SPEAKER_07 17:25

Yes, it does.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:26

Like my dad lives down there, he followed us down there. Yeah. And then he loved it. So he stayed. But he lives in a retirement community. And the reason why he has relationships is because he goes to everything.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:37

He literally, every time there's bingo night, pickleball, good for him, all the things, he he's joined committees, he's he poured himself in, which I'm so grateful for. But that's why he's been able to establish friendships.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

I I would imagine it's harder with a working family. Yes. Right? You don't have you're not retired. You can't just go do social stuff. Yes. Which isn't a hit on your dad. It's good. I think of my in-laws who they're they live here in Ellensburg, and mom and dad are involved in their little community. Yeah. And they're retired. So I if you're retired, it's probably a little easier. But yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:09

And I was a stay-at-home mom at the time, which made it even harder because I was like isolated a lot. Like Kingston was three months old when we moved. So I spent a lot like my dad, it was so helpful for my dad to be there because we would go out and adventure. We would go, let's go to this park across town, let's go to this trampoline park in Arizona. One thing they do well that we don't do as much is kids' activities. Like we have kids' activities that are like kind of figure it out yourself, but they have like established kids, you know, places of business that yeah, are really catered to kids. And so I wish Seattle had more stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Interesting.

SPEAKER_07 18:47

So then when we left Arizona, we moved to Seattle. Yeah. Because he was at U of A, then he was at UW.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

UW, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:52

Yeah. And then we loved Seattle. Okay. Like loved um a lot of things about Seattle. But as most people know, it's pretty expensive. Um, and we weren't able to sell our house in Arizona. So we just decided like we can continue to do this, but like all of our income goes towards just rent and mortgage and all those things. Cost of living. Yes. And so it was just one of those things where we were like, and also we recognized there was we needed more support. Like we didn't have again, yes, community because we were starting over again, and just really hard. There was one time we uh one of my daughters had a uh ceremony that was on one of the islands, and we had to take a ferry. Well, there was a big like delivery truck that took up half the ferry, so then it was backlogged, and then my other daughter got out of school and we weren't there. So I had to call a friend of mine to run down to the school, get my kid, and it was just like this is I would have ten people in Ellensburg that would do that.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Right. And so that was And it's smaller, so it's super easy. You're not stuck in a ferry line or doing something like you know, if something happens in Ellensburg, well, I can just turn around and take the five minutes.

SPEAKER_07 20:01

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

You're talking an hour, two hours.

SPEAKER_07 20:03

Right. So it was it was very different in that way. But there were a lot of things like like I was in walking distance to Easy Street Records, which is kind of famous records, but walking distance.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Wow. Oh, what a great area of Seattle. Yes, great Greenwood?

SPEAKER_07 20:17

Uh West Seattle.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Yeah, oh yeah, oh West Seattle. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 20:21

Oh, you were lived in the um Alaska Junction first, and then we moved to Admiral because the preschool was in Admiral and it was across the street. Okay. And so we rented this cute little gingerbread Victorian house, which like I love so much. Love everything Victorian. And so that was really fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So you moved back how long has it been? Almost two years. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 20:43

August of 2024.

unknown 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for all that. That's that's uh that's cool. How about a question? Sure. Okay, here we go. So um you've shared a lot about your personal life and your work life and and what brought you into the field of of

Why Shame Fails In Recovery

SPEAKER_01 21:04

wanting to help people navigate life who are going through struggles. So what and and and I'm a person in long-term recovery, and I've worked in the field myself, and I do things in different ways. And so I'm interested to hear your your response to this one. What have you learned about people and recovery work through your experience working with offenders when talking about substance use and mental health?

SPEAKER_07 21:28

So working with the people I work with, I've always been the type of person that just wonders like, why isn't what we're doing working? Like we always want to try different things as a society, and we're like, this is the best way, and this makes us feel the best, but it's not working. And I think that a lot of people think if you shame people that are in active addiction, yeah, if you shame them enough, they're gonna stop. But it's so much deeper than that. I don't know that I've ever met someone who's in active addiction or in recovery that doesn't have some sort of underlying mental health trauma, something that's happening where they are desperately seeking a coping mechanism. They are looking for a way to deal with this really, really hard thing. And everybody's different in the way they deal with that. You know, and I I really it's heartbreaking for me because I see these people and I talk about it all the time. Like if I had a nickel for every client I have that was that kid bouncing around the classroom and just kept getting sent to the principal's office. And I'm not necessarily blaming the teacher because I've got 22 other kids, I can't have Michael over here bouncing. And at the same time, the message is sent over and over and over when we know this universal truth as adults. If you go to the principal's office, you're a problem. Yep. There's a blanketed statement.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

And once you're pegged, as a problem.

SPEAKER_07 22:56

Correct. It's hard to correct.

SPEAKER_01 22:58

You're darn right.

SPEAKER_07 22:59

So just like our criminal justice system, how do I correct that?

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:02

And so if I'm going to the principal's office all the time, now I've decided that shame has been introduced at a young age of I'm the problem.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

That's I uh one of my taglines is shame and guilt never work as a tool to get people to change their lives. Yes. You know, and and and we do that. That's that's what we do. Um I I reminded me to say I wanted to say thank you for the work you did as a probation officer. Because when you said your answer to that question, it made me think of my DOC corrections officer Marco Las Razio. Um he I you know, I'm I'm a person that I believe you know, that saying the people will forget what you did, they'll forget what you said, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. Yes. And he never guilt or shamed me. He was real with me. Yeah. Like, because it it took me a while, right? I was like, he had come in, he's like, okay, your UA was positive. And and I remember him saying to me, David, what you know, I'm gonna have to put you in back in jail. Yeah, you know, but he said it in a way that wasn't like, well, I'm gonna put you in jail if you don't stop. He said it in a way, he cared. I could tell he cared.

SPEAKER_03 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Right? And so I I stayed in contact with him years after. And so it kind of goes to this thing that you're talking about, you know, and you are absolutely right. I've yet to meet someone that in active addiction or in recovery, almost always. I mean, it's I think the statistics are like 80%. I don't know, because addiction can start all by itself. Yeah, you don't have to have an underlying thing, but most man, what we learn is there was something.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

And for me, you'll read, you know, it was it saved my life. Drugs and alcohol actually saved my life in a lot of ways. So it was a for sure a coping mechanism, and then the criminal behavior came. That wasn't me, that was never me.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

That was an extension of that coping mechanism, right? So yeah, yeah. That's uh I appreciate your your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_07 25:13

And I it's funny because I hear from clients all the time, and I believe it's true. I they say you can tell when someone gives a damn. You can smell it on it.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

Two seconds. Two seconds.

SPEAKER_07 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Like I I can, you know, and that's people in recovery that have been through stuff and been in the criminal justice system and been involved. And again, I'm a friend of law enforcement. I I know almost every EPD officer, and the vast majority, they do care, but there are some, like, I'm like, no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_07 25:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

You know.

SPEAKER_07 25:42

And the thing that's hard for me is like being someone that was like boots on the ground, law enforcement adjacent. Like, the thing that I always say is like in six years I was never assaulted. And I'm not saying that there's not people that are in crisis or people that are violent. But that's what I'm speaking to how you work. It sure does. And I watched people in my field over and over and over and say things that I remember confronting a colleague once, and I said, I know, because I've I worked for uh JRA too, the Park Creek.

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_07 26:13

And I taught at Central. I missed a lot of my career resume here, but it was funny. I remember I had a colleague and just the way they talked, and I said, I know that when I run into anybody that I work with on the street, we're all good.

unknown 26:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:28

It's a hug, it's a high five, it's a how are you doing?

SPEAKER_05 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 26:31

I don't know that I can say the same for you because the way you talk to people is not life-giving. You kind of pour out their bucket, like pour in their bucket, pour out their bucket.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

The whole approach.

SPEAKER_07 26:42

And I remember recently, within the last year, when we moved back, I had followed one of the local restaurants, their you know, Facebook page, and they had said, Oh, this is employee of the month. And I go, hmm, that looks an awful like one of my probation kids.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 26:54

And I called them my kids because I really felt that way. And I had had him on for a long time. He had grown up in a really difficult home environment. All of his older siblings had gone to jail, and he was doing really, really well in probation, had just had a baby, all the things, had one night relapse, and it all went downhill. Ended up going to prison. Oh my god. Well, it was him. And so I had Andre and I make reservations at this restaurant. And I said, and I didn't know if he'd re I didn't know if he'd remember me. I didn't know, and I also didn't want to say, you know, it's his job. I'm not to say why I know it. So I was like, I'm gonna say I'm his teacher. And so the waitress comes over because he worked in the kitchen, and I said, Um, can you ask him to come out? His teacher's here.

SPEAKER_05 27:38

Sure.

SPEAKER_07 27:39

And he came out and he just stopped. Oh. And he he you could see the tears welling up, and I go, Do you remember me? And he goes, Of course I do. Yeah. And he goes, Can I hug you? And he goes, I have goosebumps. And yeah, he just um that's why I do this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:55

That's why you know.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

I um I've this is a little different realm, but the same thread of being finding ways to connect people is I've taught at Central for 15 years, you know. And yeah, the entire time I've taught, I what I hear from my students is they appreciate that that I'm real.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

And and I also I hear some of my colleagues talk about how students this and students that, and blah blah. I'm like, well, you know, it's kind of that same thing of what's your approach?

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

You know, how are you sending the message you need to send? Whatever, whether you're teaching or you're a probation officer, or you're in corrections, or you're law enforcement. I think we can reach a lot more people if we consider our approach.

SPEAKER_07 28:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:40

And and it's also knowing your audience, knowing what they need. Yes. Like I know that jail and prison are a culture.

SPEAKER_04 28:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:47

I know that offenders, it it's a culture, it's the way we operate. And it's like I walk in knowing that. I walk in knowing what the best approach is. And one of those is when I talk to clients, I say, look, and this is really how therapy should be, if you want to ask me, but I tell them right off the bat, like, you're driving here. I'm in the passenger seat.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 29:08

Because they are so responsible.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

You automatically empower them from day one.

SPEAKER_07 29:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Right? Rather than, okay, this is what you need to do, this, this, and this. If you want to get this, you're saying from day one, hey, you're the driver here.

SPEAKER_07 29:21

Yeah. Because think about it, if you've never even considered therapy and everyone around you is telling you you have to get therapy, maybe it's court ordered, maybe it's whatever. Yeah, that you're already, and I'll have people come to me and they're like, first of all, I don't want to be here. And I'm like, I love you for saying that because I can work with that.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:39

As long as you're not screaming at me, I can work with that. But sometimes it's and even the screaming, right? Like I Martin Luther King said it, like the screaming, the rioting, all that stuff, that comes from a message of the unheard. That comes from people trying to get a message across and nobody's listening. And so I can even work with that. There's very little I can't work with. I try to go, okay, what is the function of this behavior? Because every behavior has a function.

SPEAKER_05 30:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:04

Why are you doing this?

SPEAKER_05 30:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:06

And what's under that?

SPEAKER_05 30:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 30:07

Like if if people, because we know anger is a secondary emotion. So if you're displaying this like prickly cactus vibe, okay, are you hurt? Yeah. Are you betrayed? Did you feel betrayed? Are you abandoned? Like, where is that coming from? And really digging in. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 30:25

That's good.

SPEAKER_07 30:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

Okay, so another question.

SPEAKER_07 30:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Why is it so important that communities provide resources and opportunities to help people rebuild their lives instead of simply

Reentry Support Makes Communities Safer

SPEAKER_01 30:39

writing them off?

SPEAKER_07 30:40

Oh, okay. This is like probably my biggest um thing that I wish people could know about what I do. The reality is that nobody wants to hear is that people are not gonna spend their lives incarcerated. Most people will not spend a life sentence behind bars. They are going to be a community member. They're gonna be your neighbor, they're gonna be out and about at the grocery store, they're gonna be doing all that, and they're gonna be taking their own kids to a graduation or whatever. Like they will be here. And my thing is, I think the misconception is like, oh, you're sympathizing with offenders. And it's like, I sympathize with humans, but like I also care about the victims. I care as being someone who's been a victim. And Andre's even been a victim. He got hit by a drunk driver a number of years ago, totaled the car. And our first thought was I don't just want this person to sit behind bars. I want them to be going to classes so they don't do this to someone else. And you would think everybody would want that, right? Like, let's give them the skills so that they can be the best version of themselves.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Productive members. Right.

SPEAKER_07 31:49

Not just for the victim, for the community, but also their family. We forget that they have a family that didn't do anything. They have partners with kids and mothers and dads and uncles and aunts and all these people that are sort of this collateral doll this.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:05

And we want dog hair.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Imagine that.

SPEAKER_07 32:09

Um they they're a part of this too. And I why wouldn't we want to give them the best chance to like build some skills? Learn that. Because if you think about it, we know that trauma can repeat, history can repeat. So if I'm a 12, 13-year-old kid, right, and I need a parent to be saying, um, this is how you act around girls. Yeah, this is how you act around your teacher, this is what all this, but my parents are in active addiction, or my parents have left, or I have a mom with three jobs. Who's gonna teach them that? And then we expect them at 18 to just know how to do that. They figure it out, but they do it through the criminal justice system. They get in trouble for not knowing how to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

So let me let me add a little spice to this because we hear this. Well, we've given them treatment, we've given them counseling, they took the classes.

SPEAKER_04 32:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Why should we give them more?

SPEAKER_07 33:02

Hmm. Um, I think it's I think if if it's really coming down to the raw reality, is that everything else we've tried isn't working, so we might as well continue to throw things at it. And I'm a big proponent of like, for whatever time I have somebody, even if it's a short time, like let's roll up our sleeves. Like, it's not traditional therapy. Traditional therapy would take months. I don't have months. Oh I have short periods of time to work with people, and so it's like I'm gonna throw every skill I can at you, and it really comes with it builds quick rapport, which is hard with people again that aren't like sign me up for therapy. So I have to build quick rapport, and then I have to really go for the like, okay, what is the biggest pattern in your life that's causing problems? And really the approach I take with people is like everybody's trying to get their needs met. And if I tell them to worry about everyone else in their lives, as narcissistic as it sounds, people aren't interested in how my behavior's affected others. What I have to start with is how has your behavior affected you? You were on this path to do this, and you got in your own way. So how do we deal with that first? And that affects everybody else.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

Yeah, and if you can have a positive effect on that, it will have the ripple effect.

SPEAKER_07 34:24

Right. And I think we continue to look for ways to be creative about that because what we've done for a couple hundred years of just putting people in a cold jail cell and feeding them a piece of bread, it's not working. If it worked, people wouldn't re-offend. So what we're trying to do is trying to figure out how can I get to the bottom of this? How can I sort of I guess it's sort of like break up the soil a little bit because you can't really plant. And I always tell people because I see them at their most vulnerable, right? Like I see you when you're just raw. And I always say, like, we have to break down the walls of this and get down to the studs. We cannot rebuild if there's mold and asbestos and all these, like we can't do that. We have to be able to look at okay, what are the things that are causing me harm to eventually realize how it's causing other harm?

SPEAKER_05 35:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:20

But again, if I'm talking about how it affects everybody else, then I'm going into that realm of shaming you.

SPEAKER_05 35:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:27

And you don't want to hear it. And then you'll shut down.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:30

And what I always quickly, what I always tell people too is how many people stay in the conversation and they're physically there, but they've turned that internal volume all the way down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

And that's where I think your approach really is a powerful thing is that because I think because I'm just thinking back to my time. I was heavily involved in the criminal justice system. I had probation officers, judges, lawyers, cops, all you know, and and um, you know, when I think back to the mid-90s when I was really trying to turn things around, those counselors or law enforcement or probation officers that were in your mold, because you're in the mold of Marco Lisrazio, that said those kind of things in those ways, I was like, oh, okay. You know, there's part of me that maybe didn't want to be there, but if you can say things in a way that can maybe chink away at that wall a little bit, yeah, that can be really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_07 36:22

Yeah. And I'm really getting at, you know, I'll sit in front of 30, 40, 50, 60 year olds, but I'm talking to the 10-year-old.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Yeah.

unknown 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:33

Who needed someone at that time. And I think about it too, right? You've probably been to a conference or a workshop where they do an icebreaker and they say, think of a person in your life that was most influential to you. And I remember thinking about it, and I would go back, and all the people I could think about, the one thing they all had in common is they didn't judge. Yeah. Just come as you are.

SPEAKER_04 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 36:53

Show up whoever you are, and we'll deal with the rest later. Don't fit into a box, don't conform to this. Just come as you are and we'll deal with whatever that looks like. And I think about that when I work with people. I think about it often.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_07 37:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

Okay, we're gonna roll right into the third question, then one more, and then you're be off the hot seat. How are you feeling?

SPEAKER_04 37:15

Good.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Good. This is this has been really good. So, what are some of the biggest misconceptions, myths, misconceptions? You're

Myths About Offenders And Human Worth

SPEAKER_01 37:23

doing a big sigh. I know you're ready for this one, but uh uh about P or excuse me, what are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about individuals involved in criminal justice or behavioral health systems? What are those big ones that you hear and you just take that big sigh?

SPEAKER_07 37:40

Um, I think a big one is that people are really different than them. Like people look at like I'm in this category, offenders are over here.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_07 37:54

And really there's things that if we really compared the two and we didn't we put like masks over both of them and I asked questions, like really we're more alike. Yeah, and I think too, that's another thing we kind of talked about it, but that giving a damn also comes with people know when I meet with them like I'm more like you than I am like most people.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Then I'm different, right?

SPEAKER_07 38:19

Yeah, because I've been through it, I have trauma, I've I've been through hell, and honestly, even for me, like I'm gonna hear more and take more in from somebody who's been through it than somebody who's had this sugar-coated life. I that doesn't move me because you don't know that struggle, you don't know that overcoming that that grit, that perseverance that that took to get to where people are, and I think that means something to people.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

And don't we need a little more of that in society right now? We're we're more alike than we are different. Yeah, we're we're in this age of you're this or you're that, and you know, as a person in recovery um and who's been in the thick of it and lived a crazy life, and and I have an amazing life now. One of the things I've had the opportunity to give trainings for law enforcement, and I say it, and here's my other little bully pulpit to say this, and you're gonna appreciate this, is I say, you know, the next time you're driving in little old Ellensburg or Big City, Seattle, and you see that person on the street corner in a mental health crisis or a drug-addicted state, I am them.

SPEAKER_03 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

And and they are me.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

And you know, because some people look at me in my life, oh, you've done so great. I said, I say, hey, yes, I've done the work, but the only reason I'm sitting here right here today is because I had access to people like you. I had access to treatment and counseling and housing, and I had access to resources and support. That's the only reason I'm sitting here.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

But I am them, they are me, they are us.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And we we when we stop putting people in this camp or that camp and just treat each other as the humans that we are, yeah, I think things could be a little different.

SPEAKER_07 40:06

Yeah. But I think people, I there are people out there that I feel better if I knock you down a bag. Oh, oh, absolutely. And I think for me, even like as a Christian, like I think, well, I'm a Jesus follower. I think in today's day and age, Christian and Jesus follower are different. Um, but I one of the things I think about in my job, because I don't talk about my faith in my job.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:26

And I've always had like government jobs where I couldn't and wouldn't and all that stuff. But I feel like one of the things with being a Christian is like I always think about this um whatever, you know, however you treat these people, yeah, is how you treat me.

SPEAKER_05 40:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:42

And that includes, I mean, it says it in the Bible about offenders. However, you treat them, you treat me. And I think about um, you know, it it kind of talks about in there, like, you will know them by their fruit. Like, do people see something different in me? Do they see that I look at people different? Do they see I treat people different? Not that I'm talking about it. What am I doing?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

What are you doing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 41:07

And that's so big.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Anyone can go sit in a church pew on a Sunday and listen to a preacher and and put on nice clothes and you know, say hi to people, but what are you doing when you leave?

SPEAKER_03 41:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

What are you doing every day?

SPEAKER_03 41:20

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:23

Okay, final question for you, and then two closing questions. So, um, man, yeah, you're you know, the the work you do is important, it's meaningful.

Staying Grounded In Heavy Work

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Um with that said, this kind of work can be emotionally heavy and exhausting. Because you you are you're working with people, you're not seeing people on their best days. You're not a counselor, a therapist who's seeing someone who's got a house and has a job and is having crisis for sure, but you're seeing people on their worst days, their worst moments of their life. What helps keep you grounded and able to continue showing up for people?

SPEAKER_07 42:07

Oh, um, I think it helps that I love what I do. I now know as I'm older that there's a difference between doing a job and going through the motions and doing something you're passionate about. There's a difference. You feel it. You want to be there, you want to show up, you want to be that reliable person. And I think um I'm trying I'm still trying to master this art of like work-life balance or self-care as we use these buzzwords. And I do try to turn it off.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 42:41

There are days I can't because either what I hear is heavy, what my client experiences is heavy, it's heavy for the world. Like, I want to keep the community safe. It matters to me.

SPEAKER_05 42:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 42:52

And I think that just my kids are so busy that helps. Like, I walk in the door and I'm immediately thrown into what's for dinner, the laundry, baseball.

SPEAKER_06 43:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 43:04

Um, and I think that that really helps. And I think that um having things, having an identity outside of work really helps me. And also, even when I'm doing therapy, it doesn't matter what my client comes to me with, the most horrific thing. I'm very task-oriented. Like I always compare it to like the guys who stand out on Veterans Day for like 24 hours near the flags.

SPEAKER_06 43:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 43:27

Have we not seen them in the worst weather? Yeah, and they sit there, they stand, they stand there through everything. Yeah, and it's a task. Yeah, it's it's something to be completed. And I look at my job like that too. Sometimes I have to temporarily suspend whatever I know about this because I'm here to treat the person. I'm not here to treat all like that's some of that stuff's not even relevant to me. I'm what's relevant to me is what is your biggest issue and how do we stay in the moment. I do, and it's very task. Yeah, it's very complete the task. And I've gotten really good at poker face too, because there's sometimes where somebody will say something and I'm like, nope, nope, your face has to stay the same. Yeah. But I definitely, when I leave, I try to just be like the same with my my family life. Like, this is a task. Like we're we're going to the grocery store, we're doing you know, kind of breaking out the day into sections.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

So, what do you do for fun? Uh all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_07 44:25

Busy mom, and you know I I really love like murder mystery tours. Oh, we love to do those in every city we're in. Okay, go on. Um, super, super fun.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Murder mystery tours?

SPEAKER_07 44:35

Yeah. Like any city I'm in, like, take me on a tour and show me where this event happened. There used to be this big tour in LA that's called the Dearly Departed. It's a famous murder mystery in in Hollywood. And it's closed down because of COVID because a lot of those businesses couldn't stay afloat. But it would take you to all these famous places where celebrities died, like the Black Dahlia and John Belushi and Janice Stropple. In fact, they died in the same hotel room. Most people don't know that. But all these fun little I'm like a factoid person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Like little Well, you and Katrina will give it a lot.

SPEAKER_07 45:06

I'm like the person you call on trivia night.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

She she watches 60 Minutes and Dateline. You know, they're all the same story. I kind of jokingly say, Yeah, it was the nicest person in the world until they murdered someone, okay? They were the greatest couple in the world. But but that would be cool to do the murder mystery tour.

SPEAKER_07 45:23

Because I think it just fascinates me. Human behavior just fascinates me, and I think it always has. Like, why are you like this or why do you do this?

SPEAKER_05 45:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:30

And I think that's just an extension of that. We're trying to be better about like going to concerts, sure, traveling, stuff like that. Um, and so I like to plant vegetables, I like to listen to music, you know, sometimes just get in my car and go park up at the water tower and watch the construction of the rodeo or I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Just yeah, no, that's good. Yeah. We we go for drives, you know, because we live and Katrina lives and works in her home. So someday she's like, I need to go for a drive. So we go on a drive. Um, yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_07 46:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

Andre, what does he like to do?

SPEAKER_07 46:06

Oh, he's, you know, he's sort of like me. He'll tag along for stuff I like.

SPEAKER_06 46:11

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 46:11

Sometimes I tag along for him. We like to do date nights where we go to the movies, go to dinner. Good. Well, we could get a babysitter, yeah. You know, stuff like that. But we're really trying to do more of those, like, let's go to a concert, let's go to a day trip out of town, take a ferry somewhere. Yeah. That's what's so nice about the Pacific Northwest is like we have all the weather, all the things. Just which direction are you going in? And Ellensburg's so nice because you're sort of equal distance to everything.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Yeah. Yeah. I was on my motorcycle waiting for the group. I joined them a little late, and so I waited right at the mouth of the canyon. And um, this couple came and they were gonna take a picture by the sign. I'm like, oh, is this your first time here? And they're like, Yeah. So I had gotten a comment. They're from Colorado and Virginia, and I'm like, you know, we I it's this is a reminder that I'm fortunate because I get to see this every day. Yeah. Oh, and they were going to the gorge for their very first concert. You know, and we Brandy Carlisle. Yeah, we live in a part of the world that people come from around the world to see. Yes. And it's right here.

SPEAKER_07 47:10

Yes, yeah, yes, so super cool, very fascinating place.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Okay, here we go. Okay, two closing questions.

SPEAKER_07 47:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

Um, you've done some of this through this talk, but if someone listens to this down the road, okay, if someone is um,

Hope Through Small Acts And Connection

SPEAKER_01 47:27

you know, just pops in a podcast and they need a message of hope. This is your opportunity. What is um what is one piece of hope and wisdom you would give to the world?

SPEAKER_07 47:41

I think I have to piggyback off of my favorite quote by JFK. Everyone has the ability to make a difference and everyone should try.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:50

A misconception we get a lot in mental health is like, okay, some event happens, big event, small event, isolated event, you fix it. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 48:03

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 48:04

But we all have the ability to fix it. If you have an elderly neighbor who you see every day walk to the mailbox and you don't see her for a couple of days, it shouldn't take the mental health community to go say, are you a Go knock on the door? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Know your neighbor.

unknown 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:20

I think we can all we tend to do that, don't we?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

When something happens, they should be fixing it. That person, which there might be some truth to that, like certain entities, but what can I do?

SPEAKER_07 48:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

What can I do to help?

SPEAKER_07 48:34

But think about how, like, just giving someone a compliment, how much that makes their whole day, and then you hear about it later. Like, I go back to when you hear somebody say, This really made a big impact. And a lot of times it's not this grandiose thing. It's not a grandiose thing. It's the coach that picked me up for baseball because my mom couldn't drive me and I wouldn't have been able to play baseball, and now I play in the That's what you mean. You know, now I'm a professional baseball player. Like it was that small act picking me up on my way to the field. And now I got to do something I wouldn't have got to do. It's it's the small acts, it's not the big things, and all of us can do that.

SPEAKER_05 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:10

And honestly, the mental health community needs all of us to do that because there's only so many of us, and half the time we get burned out because there's so much to do, and and I think it would make such a big difference, like noticing people, noticing different things about them. Are you okay? You seem like you're not as talkative. Check it in, yeah, or you got a haircut, or you know, all those things. Yeah, it really makes a huge difference, especially people that are alone and isolated.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

It shouldn't take some big event either to bring us together.

SPEAKER_07 49:40

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Right?

SPEAKER_07 49:41

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

Um, I just thought of this. You'll appreciate this. You've probably heard it, and it kind of goes to uh uh helping people with mental health and substance. The opposite of addiction is connection. When we help an individual feel connected to the world around them, it's a power, it's a game changer.

SPEAKER_07 50:01

Well, Brene Brown said pain creates intimacy. Pain creates intimacy, which is why when you had vets that would go to war together, you would see them on unsolved mysteries trying to reconnect with them.

SPEAKER_02 50:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:15

I'm closer to you than I am my spouse.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:17

Because we went through it together.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:20

Pain create it can create codependency, but it can also create intimacy. It makes us closer.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Huge bond. Huge. Okay. This is the one where I always get a little nervous. Here we go. What's a question you've always wanted to ask me?

Bucket List Travel And Closing

SPEAKER_07 50:45

Where's a place that you want to travel that you haven't traveled yet? A new place that's on your bucket list.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

Oh boy. Um where's a place I want to travel that I haven't traveled to yet? Uh, South America comes to mind. We we when we were had Airbnb going, I think it was the guy that stayed at our place. He was it was either a guy or girl, but he was from Brazil. Um, never been to that part of the world. That would be cool. Um been to Europe a couple times, so that's cool. Just trying to think, finally, went to Alaska. Different parts of our own country. Uh I people here you go. People, people usually go, Oh, why do you want to go there? But um, I want to go to Detroit. I want to go to Chicago.

SPEAKER_07 51:37

Okay. Um Chicago's on my list, too.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah, Detroit, because I'm I've always been a car guy, and people are like, Well, it's depressed now. It's a I want to go, I want to see it, I want to feel it. Um, so there's parts of our own country that I still want to visit. There you go.

SPEAKER_07 51:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 51:54

I love hearing about people wanting to travel and why.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

And yeah, I love that. And and intentionally, like you and Andre, um, Katrina and I are being purposeful about taking even just small trips more.

SPEAKER_03 52:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:07

Right? Even if it's a weekend or a day trip or somewhere, because we spend so much time doing, how much time are we actually spend experiencing?

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Yeah. And um, life is short.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Uh yeah. So, there you go. This has been great.

SPEAKER_03 52:23

Yes, I think.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

This is this has been really good. Thank you for coming on the show. Um, this is the part if you want, I'll give a hug.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Oh, yeah. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Yeah, this has been really, really good.